Business and Law

[Jonmcorbett]

I am wondering if anyone has experience fighting unjust business laws. I have not read all of AILL yet, but it seems to mainly have issues from traffic and tax cases.

I am starting my own business and I think this could come in handy. Especially if someone knew of a way around paying import taxes on goods. (This could potentially be HUGE, as some goods have over 50% of their value taxed when imported).

I also have a friend who owns a restaurant in California. He has been harassed by the Dep. of ABC (Alcohol Beverage Control). You would not believe how many bullshit laws there are in CA regarding the sale of alcohol. Liquor licenses are a racket.

This area of Legal Land most excites me because of all the opportunities. What if you were able to operate a business without all the red tape? You would have a great advantage on all competitors!

Please let me know if you have any ideas on this.

[Dionysus]

The economy has five distinct levels: red, pink, white, grey, and black.

The red market is the market of state overt violence, value destruction, and wealth confiscation.

The pink market is the market of government-endorsed monopolies and oligopolies of useful services.

The white market is "legal" productive activity.

The grey market is activity that would otherwise be legal, conducted off the books.

The black market is forbidden/”illegal” activity.

You should strive to participate in the grey market. The easiest way to make the transition to grey market work is to do a few hours a week. If everybody who's interested performs a few hours of grey market work per week, eventually there'll be a critical mass. People would be able to work full-time in the grey market. Some people would have simultaneous white-market and grey-market businesses, facilitating operations. For example, your white market business could show a small profit while your grey market business is incredibly profitable. An alternate monetary system needs to be developed, because there are too many government spying capabilities built into the official financial system. Until the red market collapses, grey market workers will still need to acquire dollars to pay certain taxes and for other purchases.

The primary difficulty is that would-be grey market workers have no convenient way to find people to trade with. People might be willing to risk performing grey market work, if it was done in private and they knew their trading partner wouldn't rat them out to the red market. The cost of taxation, inflation, and regulation is so high that there's a tremendous incentive for grey market labor.

Hope this helped.

[Jonmcorbett]

Thanks for the reply. That is interesting and has me thinking.

So some examples of the different markets could be-
Red- Police/Military
Pink- Banks/Medical
White- Retail stores(probably nothing is truly white though, as the government tends to taint all industries with regulation. If it is legal is it 100% productive?)
Grey- Hiring undocumented workers(Construction/Restaurants comes to mind)
Black- Drugs

I am thinking of ways to make the Grey market closer to the white market. Such as not paying import taxes.

[NonEntity]

(06-01-2012 01:20 PM)Dionysus Wrote:  The primary difficulty is that would-be grey market workers have no convenient way to find people to trade with. People might be willing to risk performing grey market work, if it was done in private and they knew their trading partner wouldn't rat them out to the red market. The cost of taxation, inflation, and regulation is so high that there's a tremendous incentive for grey market labor.

Hope this helped.

Putting on my "THE SKY IS FALLING, THE SKY IS FALLING" hat, my worries and some experience show me that this is difficult because there are SO many people who believe that unless you pay taxes and get permits you are HURTING the fabric of society and so they feel it is their civic duty to report you. My own personal experience with my own business was also the fact that once you let ONE bureaucrat know about you, then ALL of them know about you. They trade info with each other so that it is virtually impossible to stay off the radar unless you are totally in the black market with others who are also in the black market.

Of course I could be wrong, or things could be changing. I certainly hope so. It finally got to the point with me that I was unwilling to do all that I had to do to try and function as a business... I threw in the towel. Now I just sort of do catch as catch can here and there and get by on very little. I can live with myself this way. I'm not paying them money they can use to kill brown people all around the world.

- NonE

P.S. I tend to believe that it is not "the government" that is so much the problem as all of the "citizens" who believe that all business men are evil and must be banned if not just caged outright. All of the disasters caused by regulation are only "proof" to them that we need much more regulation because all people are evil.

[Jonmcorbett]

(06-01-2012 02:01 PM)NonEntity Wrote:  

(06-01-2012 01:20 PM)Dionysus Wrote:  The primary difficulty is that would-be grey market workers have no convenient way to find people to trade with. People might be willing to risk performing grey market work, if it was done in private and they knew their trading partner wouldn't rat them out to the red market. The cost of taxation, inflation, and regulation is so high that there's a tremendous incentive for grey market labor.

Hope this helped.

Putting on my "THE SKY IS FALLING, THE SKY IS FALLING" hat, my worries and some experience show me that this is difficult because there are SO many people who believe that unless you pay taxes and get permits you are HURTING the fabric of society and so they feel it is their civic duty to report you. My own personal experience with my own business was also the fact that once you let ONE bureaucrat know about you, then ALL of them know about you. They trade info with each other so that it is virtually impossible to stay off the radar unless you are totally in the black market with others who are also in the black market.
- NonE

I haven't seen this too much. There are certain lines that people in general seem to have. Not many people care about illegal immigrants taking tough jobs- farm workers, construction grunts, cooks. There is a lot of hemming an hawing on TV about it, but I don't think the average guy really cares.

I am not looking to do anything illegal. I just want to use Marc's approach of using the government's own BS against them when it comes to laws. What if I am able to show that I am not technically importing goods to the US because it doesn't exist? Or that there is no cause of action because there is no injury?

[NonEntity]

(06-01-2012 02:20 PM)Jonmcorbett Wrote:  I am not looking to do anything illegal.

Of course you are. I think what you mean is that you are not looking to do anything immoral. BIG difference.

(06-01-2012 02:20 PM)Jonmcorbett Wrote:  I just want to use Marc's approach of using the government's own BS against them when it comes to laws. What if I am able to show that I am not technically importing goods to the US because it doesn't exist? Or that there is no cause of action because there is no injury?

I whole heartedly support you.

What I am (perhaps reading into your) seeing is that you have a desire to "best" them, to beat them at their own game. If that gives you pleasure and a sense of accomplishment, great, go for it. As for me, as long as I even have to think about "them," they have won, they have taken away a part of my life that I would much rather be using to enhance my life, to love, to create, to play, to celebrate the act of living. This is probably something I make too much of to my own detriment, but whenever I have to deal with someone who is ultimately threatening my life to get what he or she wants, I feel totally violated, as perhaps a rape victim might. It is visceral for me. I don't see it as a game of cat and mouse, to me it is utter evil.

- NonE

[Jonmcorbett]

(06-01-2012 02:34 PM)NonEntity Wrote:  

(06-01-2012 02:20 PM)Jonmcorbett Wrote:  I am not looking to do anything illegal.

Of course you are. I think what you mean is that you are not looking to do anything immoral. BIG difference.

Is what Marc does in AiLL illegal? Again, I am just looking to find the loopholes around paying taxes and regulation.

(06-01-2012 02:34 PM)NonEntity Wrote:  What I am (perhaps reading into your) seeing is that you have a desire to "best" them, to beat them at their own game. If that gives you pleasure and a sense of accomplishment, great, go for it.
- NonE

I under stand where you are coming from, but I am not looking to best them. I am looking to profit.

[NonEntity]

(06-01-2012 12:39 PM)Jonmcorbett Wrote:  I am wondering if anyone has experience fighting unjust business laws.

I think the issue comes down to this...

As Marc has pointed out, a law is just an opinion backed by a gun. With that in mind, the part of your sentence I made bold is an oxymoron. Using violence to get what you want ("business laws") is never acceptable behavior. ALL laws are unjust in that they use the threat of violence (up to and including death if you resist) to preemptively dictate to innocent people how they must behave.

I think you may find that the way to operate is to simply operate honestly with honest people and in such a way that the "law" is not aware of nor involved with your dealings. The law is not fair, it is not just, and those using it are totally absolved from any damage they may cause, so it costs them nothing to destroy your life.

The more that you make them aware of your existence, the more they will want to destroy you, just because they can.

- NonE (damn! ain't I in a cheery mood today. )

[Dionysus]

(06-01-2012 01:58 PM)Jonmcorbett Wrote:  Red- Police/Military
Pink- Banks/Medical
White- Retail stores(probably nothing is truly white though, as the government tends to taint all industries with regulation. If it is legal is it 100% productive?)
Grey- Hiring undocumented workers(Construction/Restaurants comes to mind)
Black- Drugs

Yeah, pretty much. Here's what I came up with:

red: government, judges, lawyers, police, accountants, tax collectors, education, the financial industry, the military industry, and the pharmaceutical industry

pink: transportation, energy, telecommunications, television, radio, entertainment, and medicine/health care (these industries actually provide useful services, but their monopoly/oligopoly position makes them very inefficient and prices are far higher than they would be in a free market)

white (not very many left): engineering, manufacturing, construction, agriculture, and food service (government subsidies and regulations make construction and agriculture almost in the pink market)

grey: mostly unskilled, low-paid labor at this time

black: drugs, prostitution, illegal gambling, and non-government-sanctioned violence like gangster-directed assassination (the red market likes having a sizable black market because fighting the black market is used to justify increasing the red market's size and influence; the red market tells the white market: "we need more resources so we can crush the black market scumbags!")

(06-01-2012 02:01 PM)NonEntity Wrote:  It finally got to the point with me that I was unwilling to do all that I had to do to try and function as a business... I threw in the towel. Now I just sort of do catch as catch can here and there and get by on very little. I can live with myself this way.

Sorry to hear that, NonE. I'm sure it's cold comfort, but your sacrifice is helping to hasten the demise of the state.

[NonEntity]

(03-08-2013 12:24 AM)robert10kent Wrote:  Business and laws are also respectively known as commercial and company laws. Both forms of law govern business and commercial transactions as well as the internal rules of business firms. Business laws refer to the laws involving contracts, sales, commercial paper, agency, and employment law among many others. Corporate law, on the other hand, studies the relation between businesses and consumers under the internal rules of the firm. Both provide the bodies of law that govern all business and corporate transactions whether in private or public.

And your point is?

Does any of what you've said alter the fact that a law is an opinion backed by a gun?

- NonE

[eye2i2hear]

NonE--->

[NonEntity]

(03-08-2013 07:14 AM)eye2i2hear Wrote:  NonE--->

I'm on the hook???

- NonE

[eye2i2hear]

Spammer's holdin' the pole???

[see its his siggie: http://www. isipathanaonline. info/forum/14-request-a-job/103-payday-loans-canada-56 ]

[NonEntity]

(03-08-2013 09:18 AM)eye2i2hear Wrote:  Spammer's holdin' the pole???

[see its his siggie: http://www. isipathanaonline. info/forum/14-request-a-job/103-payday-loans-canada-56 ]

DAMN!!!

I HATE IT when that happens!

- NonE

[Habenae Est Dominatus]

(03-08-2013 09:22 AM)NonEntity Wrote:  

(03-08-2013 09:18 AM)eye2i2hear Wrote:  Spammer's holdin' the pole???

[see its his siggie: http://www. isipathanaonline. info/forum/14-request-a-job/103-payday-loans-canada-56 ]

DAMN!!!

I HATE IT when that happens!

- NonE

I reported it as possible spam this morning. Methinks the smilies might have been more important.