Converting a Statist.

[AgoristTeen1994]

I am proud to say that I am slowly converting a friend of mine to Christian Anarchism. While he is already a devout Christian...I'm slowly convincing him of the State being evil...though it is slow going since he's be indoctrinated in the government juvenile indoctrination camps (i.e. public school) as long as I have....12 years....but I am making progress.

[Kel]

Kudos on the effort. I've been trying to do the same with my family and friends as well. It's difficult at times. There's always the "but" to deal with. Had an interesting conversatioin with my Mom the other day on the topic of laws and the constitution. Slowly but surely. Time will see us realign.

[NonEntity]

For those who like to listen to talk shows, I highly recommend FreeTalkLive. They have a fairly consistent message of freedom and self responsibility and appear to gradually make converts out of many.

- NonE

[Nikolaii]

i've had no success converting my family despite having well articulated arguements... sometimes they ask questions, i answer them, then they ask the exact same question... it's like WTF ? i just answered that... PEOPLE BUILD THE ROADS NOW, PEOPLE WILL BUILD THE ROADS IN A TRUELY FREE MARKET... is it so hard to understand that when you shop at the store, you don't pay for every little convenience like lights, AC/heating, bathroom, and a water fountain ? it's not hard to understand that businesses have INCENTIVE to provide conveniences to consumers to garner new customers: whereas government employees have NO incentive to provide good customer service. Why ? because they're not competing against any other businesses, and so they don't have to worry that other companies will steal their customers.

COMPETITION: the mechanism that drives down prices and increases the quality of products and services.

<---- this is what's it's like trying to convert a statist

i try to use the non-aggression principle and very basic economic principles... i even point out that Hitler killed millions of people... THAT WAS A GOVERNMENT THAT DID THAT... geesh, he was ELECTED.

i'm utterly amazed everytime i try to explain these things, it always comes down to "what about the roads ?" --And even more surprisingly, one time, i got "what about war ?" --to which i thought to myself the line about "how exactly do you wage war without governments."

Most responses consist of "why don't you move ?" (yes, from family)... One time, i got "oh, that's a utopia."--a label that supposed to imply impracticability or impossibility (i guess) ?

[AgoristTeen1994]

Nikolaii Wrote:i've had no success converting my family despite having well articulated arguements... sometimes they ask questions, i answer them, then they ask the exact same question... it's like WTF ? i just answered that... PEOPLE BUILD THE ROADS NOW, PEOPLE WILL BUILD THE ROADS IN A TRUELY FREE MARKET... is it so hard to understand that when you shop at the store, you don't pay for every little convenience like lights, AC/heating, bathroom, and a water fountain ? it's not hard to understand that businesses have INCENTIVE to provide conveniences to consumers to garner new customers: whereas government employees have NO incentive to provide good customer service. Why ? because they're not competing against any other businesses, and so they don't have to worry that other companies will steal their customers.

COMPETITION: the mechanism that drives down prices and increases the quality of products and services.

<---- this is what's it's like trying to convert a statist

i try to use the non-aggression principle and very basic economic principles... i even point out that Hitler killed millions of people... THAT WAS A GOVERNMENT THAT DID THAT... geesh, he was ELECTED.

i'm utterly amazed everytime i try to explain these things, it always comes down to "what about the roads ?" --And even more surprisingly, one time, i got "what about war ?" --to which i thought to myself the line about "how exactly do you wage war without governments."

Most responses consist of "why don't you move ?" (yes, from family)... One time, i got "oh, that's a utopia."--a label that supposed to imply impracticability or impossibility (i guess) ?

You have my sympathies on having sheeple slaves for family.

[NonEntity]

Actually, I have found this to be true of most people most of the time. We humans seem to be very reluctant to examine our core beliefs. Logic, one might think, would overcome this. But it doesn't. Somehow or other we are perfectly fine with believing that 2 plus 2 equals five as long as we have not thought about it. We will continue to NOT THINK about it - regardless of the glaring spotlight of the truth burning through our eyelids.

Which, I guess, is what's behind the profound zen saying, When the student is ready, the teacher will appear. The only one who can open someone's mind is that person him(or her)self.

Which brings me back to my core belief which is that anything is okay as long as it is voluntary. It doesn't matter to me one whit what you believe, as long as you leave me alone. (That last part is the big problem, of course.)

- NonE

[Marc Stevens]

It's too bad that for some of the sheep, nothing less than the stormtroopers at the door will convince them.

Consider how difficult it is to get anarchists/agorists to actually live consistent with their beliefs once they've shed the fictions.

If you can't get past the fear, it doesn't matter if someone's an anarchist or a statist because their actions will not change.

As long as they still ACT like statists, who cares if they're anarchists or not?

[electric_u]

For me the biggest problem I encounter is convincing people that the "threats" which the assume the state protects them from are irrational. I try to compare the threat of violence to the threat of aliens... I like to call it tantamount and then explain that the definition of tantamount is equal in seriousness, as in both are equally legitimate and ridiculous things to concern your self with.

My new argument is: "in your own experience, considering each and every social interaction, what percentage of violent threats would you say you have encountered?"

And, although it is a bit harsh, when people insist on fear mongering, with statements like I don't want my daughter/wife/girlfriend (someone they view as weaker) driving on the road with a bunch of unlicensed crazies and other similar arguments... I usually retaliate with something to the effect of don't be spineless, or that is a cowardice and irresponsible attitude, and further remind them that having a license or not having one is not stopping these hypothetical crazies. All that a license does is give you a false sense of security which is ultimately a mental construct. What is actually protecting your _______ is other people doing what they ought to; acting responsibly.

[AgoristTeen1994]

Marc Stevens Wrote:It's too bad that for some of the sheep, nothing less than the stormtroopers at the door will convince them.

Consider how difficult it is to get anarchists/agorists to actually live consistent with their beliefs once they've shed the fictions.

If you can't get past the fear, it doesn't matter if someone's an anarchist or a statist because their actions will not change.

As long as they still ACT like statists, who cares if they're anarchists or not?

Sad, but true. Very, very true. Especially the part about anarchists/agorists. Though you do have do accept that for some people, they have absolutely no idea as to how to ignore the State, and to take part in the agora. Plus for many of them, at the present time the possible risks outweigh the possible benefits....which is what you always need to do, when you make a business venture, weigh the risks vs. benefits. exempli gratia, for me at the moment, big stuff like drug or gun smuggling/selling, poaching, etc. are things I can't do since the risks outweigh the benefits. However small stuff like educating people about the evils of the State, and the voluntary alternatives, skipping out on my daily session at my local Government Juvenile Indoctrination camp, (or in the plebeian vernacular, public school) and conducting transactions in things other than gov't Monopoly money, the benefits far outweigh the risks. Oh by the way, one thing you can do that is a lot of fun, is go out in the middle of the night and use chalk to write various anarchist/agorist/general-liberty-oriented messages on sidewalks and public buildings. I personally due that quite often at my aforementioned Gov't Juvenile Indoctrination camp, as well as posting various flyers with similar messages all over the inside of the school. I love to do that, and to see how it annoys the statists.

[AgoristTeen1994]

Breaking new story in relation to my conversion of a statist. I DID IT!!!!!!!! I finally succeeded in converting my friend from neoconservative statism to Anarcho-capitalism....now this is a tentative thing...but I am slowly making progress. I'll try and see if I can get him to join the forums, so he can learn more and become firmer in his grasp of the evil of the State. It was hard work, and I had to take his pro-State arguments and logically tore them to shreds, and handed them back to him in tatters. >
Now having said that, I might be wrong....I am however about as close to being 100% sure as I ever get, that he is close to the point of no return in the path to agorism/anarcho-capitalism. My logic in this is quite simple. 1. I have got him to admit that the State is an inherently evil institution. 2. Since he is a devout Christian I used the Bible as a source for evidence against the State's evil nature, I got him to admit that neither Jesus, nor God, like government...mortal government that is and that according to the Bible it was an institution born out of sin and rejection of God (sorry to those atheists on here, but my friend is a devout Christian and honestly, so am I.) and 3. I got him to admit that there is at least a possibility of the State being unnecessary. That was last night, so he may have finally given up that last tenuous thread of Statism...the belief that even if the State is evil that it is necessary...and he might have accepted that it is both evil and unnecessary. So that combined with one other thing I shall mention when I plan on calling into the show today has put me in an incredibly good mood....or at least what qualifies as an incredibly good mood for me.

[NonEntity]

AgoristTeen1994 Wrote:(sorry to those atheists on here, but my friend is a devout Christian and honestly, so am I.)

First off, congratulations on your progress with your friend. Second, I have to say that I think it is funny as hell that you are so proud of "logically tore them to shreds" and then proudly proclaim that you believe in something else for which there is no evidence nor logical explanation for whatsoever!

Mind you, I don't care and as long as it works for you that is fine with me. I just hadda jump in and point out the cognitive dissonance factor. :winkwink:

All things in good time.

- NonE

[AgoristTeen1994]

NonEntity Wrote:

AgoristTeen1994 Wrote:(sorry to those atheists on here, but my friend is a devout Christian and honestly, so am I.)

First off, congratulations on your progress with your friend. Second, I have to say that I think it is funny as hell that you are so proud of "logically tore them to shreds" and then proudly proclaim that you believe in something else for which there is no evidence nor logical explanation for whatsoever!

Mind you, I don't care and as long as it works for you that is fine with me. I just hadda jump in and point out the cognitive dissonance factor. :winkwink:

All things in good time.

- NonE

While I admit that for religion there is no evidence to prove it there also isn't any evidence to disprove it....I'm personally agnostic in the sense that while I personally am a Christian I personally admit that there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of God...besides, I really agree with what Thomas Jefferson said.... "Question with boldness, even the existence of God, for if there be a God he must more approve the homage of reason then of blindfolded fear." Christianity is about the only thing I'm not skeptical of....or at least as skeptical as I am everything else. Besides even if I am a Christian I despise most organized religion, like Catholicism, or Protestantism since it is much to vulnerable to corruption...I personally prefer that people just believe and worship as they want. But yeah back to my point, while I may be Christian, I do admit there isn't evidence supporting either the existence or nonexistence of God.

[NonEntity]

AgoristTeen1994 Wrote:I personally admit that there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of

Yes, but that is a tautology!

- NonE :bootyshake:

[AgoristTeen1994]

I'm assuming you mean tautology in the rhetorical sense of using different words to say the same thing? Well either way I suppose you are right that was pretty redundant....and that just reminded me of one of my favorite quotes by Mark Twain.... "Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress, but I repeat myself."

[Kel]

NonEntity Wrote:Second, I have to say that I think it is funny as hell that you are so proud of "logically tore them to shreds" and then proudly proclaim that you believe in something else for which there is no evidence nor logical explanation for whatsoever!

- NonE

Quite an arrogant claim. What makes you so sure?