Car towed Need help!

[electric_u]

Hi,

My car was towed on May 21st from a private lot in Virginia. The car was parked on a private lot with permission of the owner of one of the condos. The car had the tags removed and was undergoing restoration and was covered but displayed a note establishing that it was undergoing restoration.

I contacted the police and they would not allow me to file a stolen vehicle report because it was reported as towed by the towing company. When I contacted the towing company they explained that they had permission to tow the vehicle based on a standing contract with the property that allowed them to remove any vehicle that is not legal on the road. When I explained that the vehicle was legal because it is not used for commercial purposes as determined by the supreme court they dismissed my remark. When I asked if the towing companies policy allowed their drivers to remove the cover they said they do, so they can see if a car is legally registered.

As of now I owe $175 to reclaim my vehicle. Is this not extortion? I want to take this to civil court and reclaim all of the fee's as well as compensation for my time and whoever else's time is needed to retrieve my vehicle. Further I would like the towing company to be prosecuted for theft.

Is it possible to prove in court that the car can be legally driven on the road without registration? Based on Marc's book and the information provided on this site it seems clear that I have a right to own a car without registering it. Please help me to formulate a sound argument and advise me how I should proceed in this matter.

[Bruce Sloane]

apparently You had a Contract with a Private Entity....

You should consult such Private contract that You agreed to

What might the State' Laws and the Supreme Court have to do with a Private agreement ..??

[Jonathanr]

There are a few questions that pop up in my mind:

1. Do the condo residents have assigned parking bays?
2. Was the vehicle parked in a bay so assigned?
3. Did the resident know about any condo/HOA contract/regulations?
4. Did the resident make enquiries or file any claim against the condo manager/HOA?

You might find that you have no contractual relationship with the HOA, but have a contractual relationship with the resident. If the resident expressed any warranties about his ability to house your vehicle in the condo parking lot, then the only legal claim might be against him/her. The resident may have a claim against the HOA, if it could be shown that the HOA does not have the contractual right to tow residents’ vehicles (or vehicles in custody of a resident) from the parking lot.

If there are no prominent signs regarding use of the parking lot, and the HOA made no attempt to contact the resident about the vehicle (or otherwise put some type of notice on it for a period of time), then it could be shown that the HOA did not carry out its contractual obligations in good faith. This still is a matter between the resident and the HOA though.

[electric_u]

A Virginia police officer claimed that if the plates, and/or, state inspection are expired or not displayed it cannot be on the road.

Is this a valid claim?

Is it true that no vehicle can be on the public roads in VA, or any state, if it is not registered and displaying that registration and inspection?

How is it that the towing company can remove the car cover? Property by definition means I have exclusive control over an item. If the HOA, and no individual, made a complaint of a specific nature; the tow company arbitrarily seized my car cover, removed it from my car, then towed the vehicle.

Quote: What might the State' Laws and the Supreme Court have to do with a Private agreement ..??

This contract with the HOA states they are to remove any car that cannot legally be on the road.

That is why I wish to show that by towing a car that can be legally driven on the road they were in violation of their contract with the HOA. See, I want to first get the towing company to commit to the fact that they arbitrarily responded to a standing contract, as opposed to a direct instruction, and I want the HOA to commit to the position that there was no specific order to remove "that" car, but rather they have a standing contract to remove any car that cannot be on the road legally.

That way I can say oh cool well by rule of law that car can be on the road legally therefore you were in violation of your contract. The HOA will have already said they made no specific complaint, as the tow company already verified, therefore the act of taking possession of my property will not be protected by authority of the HOA and I can show the court that my property rights were violated.

Once I have the HOA committed to taking no specific action against my vehicle, and can prove that Dominion towing took possession of my vehicle without authorization (via contract or otherwise), then I have grounds for a criminal prosecution.

However, all of this rides on the premise that I am not required to register a vehicle when used for my life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. Only when I can prove this can I use the courts to get justice.

I am surprised this issue is not more important to others on this board? Does this not strike at the very heart of the problem? Destructive unfounded statues being used to deprive one individual of property and allowing a corporation to "legally" extort that individual.

If there one single iota of truth to any part of what is being discussed on this forum and on this domain then I have been robbed and am presently being extorted. Please assist me in fighting for justice.

[Jonathanr]

Quote: This contract with the HOA states they are to remove any car that cannot legally be on the road.

The contract (if any) exists between the HOA and residents (condo owners, actually). It appears that your friend made incorrect (mistaken or false) representations about his/her ability to store your vehicle. I suspect that the HOA has this clause to prevent people from leaving “abandoned” vehicles in the parking lot. The purpose of parking lots is typically for parking serviceable vehicles, not for storage of chattels.

Consider this: Do you think the HOA would have had a problem if you had positioned a shipping container in a parking space, and put your vehicle inside it? I suspect they wouldn’t have taken too kindly to that either.

“Free” storage of chattels in a public area comes with a certain amount of risk…

Our pursuit of a voluntary society brings with it a responsibility for respecting the wishes and rights of others. Your friend was foolish in offering (or accepting your request) to store your vehicle.

I’m the first to suggest challenging injustice, but in this instance I’d say pay the fees and move on.

[electric_u]

Quote: “Free” storage of chattels in a public area comes with a certain amount of risk…

I am not aware of any contract between the HOA and the residents. I am aware that if my car was parked on non-private property it would have been towed because no tags are displayed. I parked it on a private lot for that reason.

Is your position that I am unable to own a car if I do not have enough property to house and hide my car from the view of any bureaucrat?

Quote: Consider this: Do you think the HOA would have had a problem if you had positioned a shipping container in a parking space, and put your vehicle inside it? I suspect they wouldn’t have taken too kindly to that either.

My friend pays a substantial HOA fee in order to use the parking spots along with other benefits as she sees fit. If she decides to utilize a spot reserved for "chattels" to house a chattel then I have not violated any rights. Further, there is no shortage of parking in this lot and the car was purposely parked in a spot that no one uses so I feel very confident that I have not disrespected anyone nor has my friend acted foolishly.

If the HOA made a specific complaint against my vehicle then sure thing I'm subject to that. But the whole point of my argument is that the towing company seized my car without authorization by the HOA.

Quote: I’m the first to suggest challenging injustice, but in this instance I’d say pay the fees and move on.

How about instead of moving on I move forward? If there were more people, like me, who are willing to defend their property rights, situations like this will make it unprofitable for towing companies to steal and extort for profit.

[Jonathanr]

Quote:Is your position that I am unable to own a car if I do not have enough property to house and hide my car from the view of any bureaucrat?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost,_misla...d_property

[electric_u]

Quote: The general rule attaching to the three types of property may be summarized as: A finder of property acquires no rights in mislaid property, is entitled to possession of lost property against everyone except the true owner, and is entitled to keep abandoned property.

Clarke, Alison, and Paul Kohler. Property Law. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2005:

Quote: “In our legal system, as in many others, the primary rule is that property rights in a previously unowned resource will be allocated to the first person to take that thing into his control” (p 108).

Blacks Law Dictionary:

Quote: “rightful dominion over external objects; ownership; the unrestricted and exclusive right to a thing; the right to dispose of the substance of a thing in every legal way, to possess it, to use it, and to exclude every one else from interfering with it.”

The Creation of American Common Law:

Quote:“the fundamental tenet of English common law...was sic utere tuo ut alienum non laedas: 'use your own property so as not to harm that of another.” (p 16).

[Jonathanr]

But it all boils down to the existence or otherwise, of a contractual relationship between yourself and the owner of the parking lot.

Absent a contractual relationship, it is little different to someone leaving their wallet in a shelf in the supermarket. The supermarket owner will hold it for some time, but eventually, will assume ownership, and keep or dispose of it as he/she sees fit.

For you to obtain assurances of ownership/security, it would have behooved you to speak with the owner of the parking lot before assuming upon his goodwill. Becoming litigious is probably not useful at this point.

[electric_u]

Quote: For you to obtain assurances of ownership/security, it would have behooved you to speak with the owner of the parking lot before assuming upon his goodwill.

I see no difference between my car visiting that lot by invitation of the owner of a condo and any other visitor who parks in that community.

Would you take the same stance for instance if I drove to my friends house parked there and we went for a 2 week hike then returned to find my car missing?

Consider this fact before leaving my car there. I lived there and my car was parked for the better part of 8 months as I rarely drive. Only after the tag was expired was my property removed from that lot. This happened in less then two weeks of the tags expiring. I never registered my car with the HOA nor was I required to do so. No one had a problem with my car sitting there for weeks at a time until the unnecessary registration expired.

I stand by my claim that no rights were violated and no person (or corporation) was disrespected by my actions. The HOA did not ask anyone to remove my car. The tow company assumed that duty in response to a contract which they (unless I am in fact required to pay these taxes) wrongfully interpreted. That interpretation being that my car is not legally allowed on the road.

By all means, demonstrate that I have a real legal obligation to register my personal vehicle for personal use and I will agree that I was at fault. In any other circumstance my rights were violated without question and I am currently being extorted and at the end of the day the police are preventing me from claiming my property by supporting the towing company in keeping me from my rightfully owned property.

[Bruce Sloane]

If You are saying the Towing Company is the entity that decided to remove Your car, on behalf of the State

then obviously, they are the entity to file suit against

[electric_u]

The state or the towing company?

If you are saying the state that doesn't make sense to me... Is a corporation responsible for their actions when they are executed in a manner that is not consistent with the natural law regardless of who endorses the action?

This is my first attempt to attack the system using the system. My premise could very well be wrong, my argument could be weak, so far I have not seen anything that demonstrates either for or against either of these statements.

This is why I am asking over and over again the same question: Can a car legally operate on the road with out tags?

If I can get a straight forward answer to this question it will be much easier for me to make a clear argument.

But, assuming that I am free to operate my car on the road without tags, my argument is as follows:

The towing company violated my rights because the acted on a contract which allows them to remove cars that cannot legally operate on the road when my car can legally operate on the road.

Of course I will need to examine the contract in detail before I can prove this action taken by the towing company was done outside of the letter of the agreement with the HOA. I am sure the odds of me winning this even if I am correct in all of my assumptions are very low. But, before I can definitely prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that I have a right to operate that car without tags on the road I have no standing to make a claim because of the fact that the HOA and Dominion towing have a contract which validates the action of removing a car that cannot operate on the road.

Furthermore, this is an excellent opportunity for me to use the system to fight the system in a civil manner. This is great for me because it greatly decreases the chances that I will be caged if I fail. Being as this will be my first attempt at using Marc's approach this is very attractive to me because everything has a learning curve. From what I have read here and heard on the radio program is the number one stumbling block starting out with this method is the reaction of fear in the court room. The best way to overcome fear is to face it head on so win or lose I want to pursue this matter in the courts if I have a reasonable chance at presenting a valid argument in court.

[Bruce Sloane]

electric_u Wrote:I have no standing to make a claim because of the fact that the HOA and Dominion towing have a contract which validates the action of removing a car that cannot operate on the road..

You now have posted real Facts, and You also have Your Answer

[electric_u]

Quote:You now have posted real Facts, and You also have Your Answer

I still don't have my answer because the fact that there is no real obligation to have tags on a vehicle in order to operate it on the roads remains undisputed or verified.

[Marc Stevens]

electric_u Wrote:Once I have the HOA committed to taking no specific action against my vehicle, and can prove that Dominion towing took possession of my vehicle without authorization (via contract or otherwise), then I have grounds for a criminal prosecution.

However, all of this rides on the premise that I am not required to register a vehicle when used for my life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. Only when I can prove this can I use the courts to get justice.

I am surprised this issue is not more important to others on this board? Does this not strike at the very heart of the problem? Destructive unfounded statues being used to deprive one individual of property and allowing a corporation to "legally" extort that individual.

If there one single iota of truth to any part of what is being discussed on this forum and on this domain then I have been robbed and am presently being extorted. Please assist me in fighting for justice.

Very doubtful you could get a prosecutor to go after the towing company. I would not pursue that.

It is also doubtful you can use the courts for justice. But, you may be able to resolve the matter in your favor if the HOA people improperly determined you were supposed to pay certain taxes for the car. I seriously doubt the people at the HOA would admit to being competent to make determinations of state tax law.