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Micah68 Wrote:

creolefood Wrote:Micah68, you wrote: "The income tax is imposed on "every person" with income in excess of a certain amount. So if a person has enough income, they are required to file returns and be a taxpayer."

Of course, "they" are "required" to! Why? Because the "government" has guns! And the liquor store clerk who has a gun stuck in his face by an armed robber is "required" to turn over the contents of the register to the robber.

Besides the fact that the "government" has guns and uses violence or the threat of violence to "require" people to pay, how is this supposed "obligation" to pay taxes created? Does your answer come from the following list?

A. The "social contract"
B. "Your duties as a citizen"
C. "If you don't like it why don't you move to Somalia"
D. "Oh, you're just an anarchist!"
E. "The courts have ruled that ________ "

I would say that there are several answers to your "why?", and I would rank those answers as follows:

1. Taxes are the price we pay for civilized society.

2. The taxes were enacted by a democratically elected government, and in a democracy you either have to take the good with the bad, or you have to choose a different form of government, such as a monarchy.

3. The government has more guns than you do.

Which answer you choose to believe says more about you than about the government.

According to a family story, one of my ancestors converted to universalism, a belief that all are saved by the grace of God. He was confronted by a neighbor who pointed out that, under his (my ancestor's) beliefs, he (the speaker) could rob and steal and cheat and murder and still go to heaven. To which my ancestor replied that "yes, and there are other religions for people like you."

The point is that some people have to be threatened to do the right thing, while others want to cooperate and do what's best for society (or their souls). If you don't care about police or the courts or crime or national defense or clean air or water or worker safety or food safety or people who are hungry, then yes, the reason you need to pay taxes is because there are people with guns who will come after you if you don't. If you're a person with a social conscience, or a sense of right and wrong, or someone who cares about society as a whole, then you might think of a reason to pay taxes that doesn't require a gun to your head.

Your choice.

Where is this Utopia? Anyhow enough of this cart before the horse crap. Your saying that the IRS has a right to inspect private papers without an allegation of wrong doing. All they need to do is swear it is a legit investigation. Unlike a normal case in which the plaintiff would be required to show cause with particularized facts about said papers and how they are involved in some wrong whey all need to say we swear it's a legit investigation......

How does some IRS agent answering these narrow set of questions satisfy minimum sufficient contacts ? Than again if there aren't sufficient contacts he won't have the requested records anyway because he never would have performed the act that created them.

I just want to know what principle of law gives the IRS the right to someone's papers. You have to admit the legal standard for seizure going from probable cause of injury to probable cause we are investigating.

It sounds like an audit to me but where does the legal duty arise from? It is not the demand that creates the obligation.