Nature’s Stipulation

[malinson]

Marc Stevens Wrote:I would even suggest all cannibals consider it wrong and the proof would be in asking them if they wanted to be dinner.

That bit of a stretch Marc, for historically speaking, the right or wrongness of the practice is entirely subjective. Just because one would not want another to eat him, dose not mean the other see's it as wrong eat the enemy. Many ancient tribal wars existed with the idea that eating the enemy was not only justified, but religiously crucial…

Rights and wrongs are defined through desires. As a people desire something, they label that which impedes their goals as wrong. But in reality, the wrong itself is an illusion…

-Malinson

[NonEntity]

Marc Stevens Wrote:

NonEntity Wrote:

Nomos Wrote:And I believe any reasonable person would agree that "murder" is the intentional and unprovoked taking of someones life.

Well, to Jeffrey Dahmer it was dinner.

Nomos Wrote:Both of which would get the same emotional response anywhere on the planet.

Except in Dahmer's world, and some others. In fact MANY others if you ask a vegan. If you ask an Israeli soldier you'll find that little Palestinian children are not people at all, they are simply targets to practice their shooting skills on. Go figure. (The same can be said for "Amerikan" soldiers as well, of course.)

Your "high horse" is getting a bit tired, dude.

- NonE

I think you're waaaaay off base here NonE. Dahmer was not insane and he certainly did agree what he did was murder. He knew full well what he was doing was wrong. I would even suggest all cannibals consider it wrong and the proof would be in asking them if they wanted to be dinner.

Why Marc, you ignorant SLUT! :bootyshake:

No, seriously. I really like your last line. That is the entire point, the whole enchilada, as it were. After I mentioned Dahmer I pointed to vegans, in case you didn't see that part of my post. It seems to me (and as I've said before, this is MY interpretation of what the concept "morality" means) that morality is a choice and a human construct, and it comes down to "is it voluntary?" or, as you put it, "would THEY want to be dinner?" Now, true, nature doesn't give a crap, and so it seems that others claim that this is the measure of things. Fine, if that is their measuring stick then that is what kind of consideration they should be given. Eat them for dinner, I don't care. But if you want to speak of right and wrong, morality and such human constructs as that, you can't pick and choose which cases you want to be moral about and which you don't. By definition that is not acting in a moral fashion.

Either act like an animal or act like a moral human, but for Christ's sake PICK ONE! If you want me to behave morally while you pick and choose when to kill, when to steal, when to brutalize... at that point you have forfeited the game.

- NonE

(and Merry Christmas, dude, to you and all of your special people! :-* )

[NonEntity]

malinson Wrote:But in reality, the wrong itself is an illusion…

-Malinson

I would say that it is a CHOICE, not an illusion. I agree that it is not natural. Nature doesn't give a shit. That is why it, like freedom, is something we can choose to create, choose to make for ourselves. Air conditioning isn't natural, either. It's a choice.

- NonE

[Dionysus]

malinson Wrote:

Dionysus Wrote:in my opinion, it doesn't really apply to humans...humans are "aliens"-- we don't really fit in...

Life isn’t fair but that doesn’t apply to me because I’m human; an alien from the stars.

Arrogance means contemptuous, a feeling or showing self-importance. I am important because I am human. There is nature and then there is me, I don’t apply to nature’s stipulation. These words pretty much speak for themselves so I'll not entertain this nonsense further.


-Malinson

I didn't mean humans are literally space aliens. I meant that we are for all intents and purposes "alien" to the earth-life system. Who "eats" us?

[malinson]

NonEntity Wrote:I would say that it is a CHOICE, not an illusion

Choice between what? Good and Evil? Right or wrong? Moral or immoral? All of these concepts are illusions of the mind and truly don’t exist.

Life is accepted by most to be unfair. This mean most people arrogantly proclaim reality as wrong, as if they were the authority of it!!

If Justice was not a figment of the imagination then there would be serious contradictions within the dynamics of our reality. Somehow, I don’t see how that’s really the case. They are illusions, and you can’t choose between things that don’t exist.

Dionysus Wrote:I didn't mean humans are literally space aliens. I meant that we are for all intents and purposes "alien" to the earth-life system. Who "eats" us?

Getting this topic back to Earth...

No matter where it is you think you come from, your still apart of natural reality...
your still under the boot of nature's stipulation...


-Malinson

[NonEntity]

malinson Wrote:They are illusions, and you can’t choose between things that don’t exist.

-Malinson

Air conditioning doesn't exist?

- NonE

[malinson]

NonEntity Wrote:Air conditioning doesn't exist?

- NonE

There can never be true justice in a reality where life is unfair, thus Justice is an illusion of the mind.

If Justice is an illusion of the mind then right and wrong can never be trully reconcilled, thus they too are illusions of the mind.

-Malinson

[NonEntity]

Marc Stevens Wrote:I think you're waaaaay off base here NonE. Dahmer was not insane and he certainly did agree what he did was murder. He knew full well what he was doing was wrong. I would even suggest all cannibals consider it wrong and the proof would be in asking them if they wanted to be dinner.

Hey Marc,

Something for your consideration: When you say "He knew full well what he was doing was wrong," I wonder if you mean that he knew it as in understood the inherent quality of wrongness (it wasn't the way he would like others to treat him), or perhaps knew it in the way that Galileo knew that it was wrong to point out that the earth orbited the sun rather than visa versa? You follow me here? I know it is "wrong" in the eyes of the law to do lots of things, but I don't consider them to be inherently wrong. I wonder if Dahmer REALLY DID consider it wrong to kill and eat those people. (Or Bundy, or others of that ilk.)

I think we make a crucial mistake when we make the assumption that all humans have the capacity for empathy. We have been proven wrong, and it behooves us to understand the meaning of that fact and attempt to try and deal with it rather than pretending the world is this warm and fuzzy place of our imaginations.

- NonE

[Dionysus]

malinson Wrote:If Justice is an illusion of the mind then right and wrong can never be trully reconcilled, thus they too are illusions of the mind.

Pardon me, but isn't that an illusion as well??? Face it, it's illusion all the way down. That doesn't change a thing. You're still someone having the experience of being human. How are you going to live your life? The "choice" is yours.

[malinson]

Dionysus Wrote:

malinson Wrote:If Justice is an illusion of the mind then right and wrong can never be trully reconcilled, thus they too are illusions of the mind.

Pardon me, but isn't that an illusion as well??? Face it, it's illusion all the way down. That doesn't change a thing. You're still someone having the experience of being human. How are you going to live your life? The "choice" is yours.

There is the objective realm of reality (reality we dwell as it actually is) and the subjective realm of reality (reality as our minds see it). Good and evil, right and wrong, just or unjust, are concepts that only exist in the subjective realm of reality. This is why they are subjective and truly don’t exist.

Justice as objectivly viewed is a deception of false reality under nature’s stipulation. It is a vision of reality as seen by the eyes of desire. It comes from a mind that see’s only what it desires to see and thus desires rule its understanding of what it see’s.

It's not a universal truth...only a subjective truth from an uninlightened perspective.

-Malinson

[NonEntity]

Games can be played. People agree on a set of rules and then play the game according to those rules. There are winners and there are losers. These are real within the context of the game. Those who cheat are operating outside of the rules and, if found out, will be sanctioned. Morality may be considered similarly. It is a mental construct. That does not make it imaginary. It is as real as a chess game is. You don't expect that while you are playing chess in the park that it won't rain, but at the same time you don't consider rain to be a part of your game. I can choose to operate in a moral paradigm and still be attacked by a government (or other) thug. That does not make my choice any less valid for the goal I'm attempting to achieve. People build buildings. This allows chess games to be played with little regard to the weather forecast. Parents similarly attempt to provide a secure environment in which their children can grow up. This does not mean that there are not tigers.

To pretend that there is no solution but to acquiesce to the hunger of tigers is simply stupid. Or... "God created all men, but Sam Colt made them equal."

- NonE

[Dionysus]

malinson Wrote:There is the objective realm of reality (reality we dwell as it actually is) and the subjective realm of reality (reality as our minds see it). Good and evil, right and wrong, just or unjust, are concepts that only exist in the subjective realm of reality. This is why they are subjective and truly don’t exist.

Justice as objectivly viewed is a deception of false reality under nature’s stipulation. It is a vision of reality as seen by the eyes of desire. It comes from a mind that see’s only what it desires to see and thus desires rule its understanding of what it see’s.

It's not a universal truth...only a subjective truth from an uninlightened perspective.

-Malinson

There is no objective. There is no subjective (or more accurately, they are one and the same and just aspects of a unified whole). There just "is." And that "is" is consciousness. Consciousness is all there is. It's the "something instead of nothing." Sticks-and-stones reality (including "nature" that you put so much faith in) does not objectively exist. Quantum physics tells us that it's all just a matrix of interference patterns that our brains/minds interpret (or as the Zen Buddhists say, "the universal rain moistens all creatures"). And somehow we find ourselves experiencing it in the "here and now." Why are we here? Because we're here. So get out there and find and fulfill your destiny. How's that for "unenlightened?"

ETA: So at length, there's no good reason to use nature as a model for anything and to follow its example if it's all just an illusion.

[NonEntity]

Dionysus Wrote:Why are we here?

I know perfectly well why we are here. That's not the issue.

The question is, WHY ARE YOU THERE! :bootyshake:

- NonE

(Speaking of quantum, is that at all related to Quadraphonic Sound Systems? Man, those really sucked! Almost as bad as DISCO! And... speaking of John Travolta, is being a member of the Scientology cult prima facia evidence of sociopathy? > )

[Dionysus]

^^ Short answer: No, with an "if"... Long answer: Yes, with a "but."

[malinson]

Dionysus Wrote:There is no objective. There is no subjective (or more accurately, they are one and the same and just aspects of a unified whole)...Quantum physics tells us that it's all just a matrix of interference patterns that our brains.....blah..blah..blah

Lots of people live in a dream world Neo; I’m not saying it’s not real…too them. Yet, that is what subjective reality is…definitely. (Subjective: based on somebody's opinions or feelings rather than on facts or evidence)

This Matrix Paramount Pictures philosophy is garbage is just plain nonsence. What we desire to see and what really is can NOT be one in the same; trust me, this is nonsense and its bad for you!!

Quantum physics? Why are they suddenly the authority on reality? They can’t even explain how reality can exist in the first place. They haven’t a clue about why things exist...at all!!!

That's why they are called theories Dionysus. A theory is a suppositional opinion of why things do what they do. However, they are NOT one in the same with objective reality - how things REALY do what they do, which can be quite the opposite of what we thought. No, Subjective reality and Objective reality are NOT one in the same.

-Malinson