legal determination/conclusion question

[eye2i2hear]

[note: originally this question was posted in this thread]

Often, when going through a case via AiLL line of questioning and seeking to question a 'witness' on the stand, at some point the prosecuting attorney will say something like "Calls for the witness to make a legal determination" (or is it "legal conclusion"?  I forget the precise phrase & my copy of AiLL is out on "lure" loan) etc.

Marc (or anyone), can you coach us a bit on just what making a legal determination (conclusion) is (supposed to be) about?  any parameters?  statutes regarding it?

One question is what about any time limit etc?  Like in the PA's using it, why isn't a legal determination/conclusion made then and there by the witness conferring with his counsel ie the PA (during a recess etc), or why would the 'defendant' not ask how long the witness needed (or was required) to respond in-- and I'll wait/get back on it then?

I suspect of course, that this is but another of Their one way streets; ie such works for Them but not us lowly "citizen/subjects/non-attorn-knees"?

I primarily ask relative here potentially with a jury "questionnaire" or a "driver's license application", that such might also require making "a legal determination", with our being 'unqualified' to make such?  or our doing so, being "practicing law without a license"?

thanks in advance (for the "entertainment only")--------- " 

[Neo]

Good questions.  I think Marc should answer first (even though I am really him).

[Darren Dirt]

...and me also. Which is a relief, cuz I'm tired of being me.

[eye2i2hear]

Neo Wrote:Good questions.  I think Marc should answer first (even though I am really him).

Darren Dirt Wrote:...and me also. Which is a relief, cuz I'm tired of being me.

wait.... how did I get to the Friday Funnies thread here?!?  lol x's 2!!

meanwhile, I'm off to a reliable source, as enquiring legal minds need to know:

  NEO IS MARC?!?    DARREN D IS DANNY B?!? 

[waydownsouth]

I'll take a stab at this one.  My understanding is that anytime anyone attempts to apply "law," be it statutes, regulations, "case law," etc. to a given set of facts, he/she is making a legal determination.  E.g., Joe Blow did x, y, & z; sections xx of title yy of the USC, apply to Joe and require him to do such and such (bend over, pay me money, paint his face green, etc.).

[Marc Stevens]

I agree with waydown, and add that any time a conclusion is made on the meaning and application of a "law" a legal opinion/conclusion/determination is made.  When a conclusion is made regarding legal rights, that is also a legal conclusion.

Sorry I've been away, I've been really busy.  Anyone on the forum from Vegas?

[Neo]

I agree with waydown, and myself.

[NonEntity]

I disagree with myself.

- NonE 

[eye2i2hear]

Otay, so there's a general definition on the table. 

Now 'bout still under the table (along with the gun):

* "implementing regulation" ie statute?  source?  site?
  [Black's Law Dictonary 6th does not have "legal determination" but does have "legally determined" and "legal conclusion"; see below]

* time restrictions/requirements?
  again, when its used (&/or abused) in a proceeding, what's the due process/counter?

* application apart from specific trial testimony? 
  e.g. one checking/signing "I am a U.S. Citizen"?
  is signing "under penalty of perjury" also seen by Them as "practicing law without a license"?  or "making a legal determination" by one "incompetent" to?  (aka automatically being a "criminal"/having "ward of the State" status?)

* how does one (or is one supposed to be able to) get the necessary "legal determination"?  Judge?  Attorney?  Courts only?

* is this "objection" by the PA simply a "club rule" (insiders) means of escape (ie offensive "defense" = bluff)?  (see "Decision" daffynition/definition below)
  [quote+ The Wizard here:  "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain... using legal jargon/words as art."]  [*"curtain" = "color of law" = official costume]

Quote:
Legally determined.  Determined by process of law.  Black Diamond S. S. Corporation v. Fidelity & Deposit Co. of Maryland, D.C.Md., 33 F.2d. 767, 769

Legal conclusion.  A statement of legal duty without fact from which duty arises.  Burton-Linge Co. v. Morton, Tex.Civ.App., 126 S.W.2d 727, 733.  A particular statement which would be considered a statement of fact in everyday conversation might, nevertheless, be considered a "legal conclusion" when used in connection with a legal proceeding if the truth of the fact state is one of the ultimate issues to be determined in such proceeding.  Cortner v. National Cash Register Co., 25 Ohio Misc. 156, 262 N.E. 2nd 586, 588.  See also Decision; Judgment.

---Black's 6th Edition, pages 895, 893

Then as to further Humpty Dumptying (per Black's "see also" reference above):

Quote:
Decision.  A determination arrived at after consideration of facts, and, in legal context, law.  A popular rather than technical or legal word; a comprehensive term having no fixed, legal meaning.  It may be employed as referring to ministerial acts as well as to those that are judicial or of a judicial character.
A determination of a judicial or quasi judicial nature.  A judgment, decree, or order pronounced by a court in settlement of a controversy submitted to it and by way of authoritative answer to the questions raised before it.  The term is broad enough to cover both final judgments and interlocutory orders.  And though sometimes limited to the sense of judgment, the term is at other times understood as meaning simply the first step leading to a judgment; or as an order for judgment.  The word may also include various rulings, as well as orders, including agency and commission orders....
The findings of fact and conclusions of law which must be in writing and filed with the clerk...
"Decision" is not necessarily synonymous with "opinion".  A decision of the court is its judgment; the opinion is the reasons given for that judgment, or the expression of the views of the judge.  But the two words are sometimes used interchangeably.
See also Decree; Final decision; Finding; Judgment; Opinion; Order; Verdict.

---Black's 6th, page 407

[Neo]

The key is always control.  Only let the lawyer and, above them, the "judge" make the final decision based on their opinion, written or not, which they can/do change on a whim.  All the legal mumbo jumbo, process, costumes, etc., is all to make it look good / legit / fool you.

[damageinc.]

Sorry I've been away, I've been really busy.  Anyone on the forum from Vegas?
[/quote]

Vegas baby! Vegas! 8)

Hey judge, will you give me a "BAR" card ie membership so I can go to the "state" "DMV" and make a "legal" conclution or determination that I IN FACT need a "drivers" "license" and can "legally" sign for one? ;D Or does my lawyer have to sign it? and if he signs it is he to bear the burden and pay the fines and go to jail :'( in my sted because he "represents" : me ie stands in my place?

[Neo]

You're not practicing law when doing it for yourself, only if doing it for others (or so they say).  It's factually the same thing but they grant you the right to f**k yourself, but not f**k others; only a lawyer can legally f**k you, by "practicing law" on your behalf, because they're "licensed" to do so.  You can quote me on that: "You're Honor, Neo said I can't f**k others legally, but I can f**k myself!  Is Neo right?"

[Darren Dirt]

My brother's favorite phrase in the Inglich Languige: "f--- the f---ing f---ers"

[Marc Stevens]

The absurdity of it is demonstrated by the fact that if one is "defending themselves" they may only give or make determinations/conclusions/opinions regarding their own legal rights, not the rights of others.  Try doing that in a dispute, which by definition includes someone else's legal rights.

[learnin2]

I'll ask one of Marc's questions in this way. "What facts are they relying on, that the people that made the law(voting, whatever), had standing to bind anyone else to any duty or obligation? If slavery truelly is illegal, then no person has standing to even vote, to make a law, that forces someone's desires or opinion, on another person.