Human & Chimp Learning (origin of Authority?) [youtube clips]

[eye2i2hear]

poster to youtube Wrote:
An experiment conducted at St Andrews University revealed that while children tried to tackle a puzzle without trying to analyze it, chimps of the same age used logic and managed to solve it

This test shows that the human child, even when given tasks that obviously have no meaning, follows the instructions given to them by the perceived authority figure, whereas the chimpanzees are more pragmatic, and exclude the extraneous steps.

I feel that this is a good example of why it is important to raise children to believe as many true things and disregard as many false things as possible. Children are our shared future, and teaching them to think critically and rationally, so they can grow up to be mindful, effective adults that use reason to help build a better world is vitally important.

Article from the Sunday Times:
"Young chimps make chumps of children"
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk...489717.ece

NOTE: This is a dramatic reenactment of an experiment for a TV documentary. The actual experiment criteria:
** The children used ranged from 41-59 months.
** The chimps used ranged from 2-6 y.o. Chimps mature at 13-14 for females, 15-16 for males.
** The box always contains a sticker. When the child gets the sticker, they trade that in for a food reward.
** The child is instructed to get the reward any way they can, then the experimenter leaves the room. The test is filmed. When the child is successful, they say "I have got it!" and the experimenter returns to the room and gives them their reward.

More Information:
http://www.hellofelix.com/childhood-soci...-are-ch...
http://www.emory.edu/LIVING_LINKS/pdf_at...Cog2006...

[Dionysus]

There was a Milgram-type experiment in a Discovery Channel show last night. I didn't watch it save for the last few minutes where they summarized the results. As expected, something like 77 percent of the participants, at the behest of an authority figure, delivered a fatal electric shock (not real, of course) to a stranger despite the stranger's supplications for them to stop. Quite depressing.

[zonsb]

(10-31-2011 10:04 PM)Dionysus Wrote:  There was a Milgram-type experiment in a Discovery Channel show last night. I didn't watch it save for the last few minutes where they summarized the results. As expected, something like 77 percent of the participants, at the behest of an authority figure, delivered a fatal electric shock (not real, of course) to a stranger despite the stranger's supplications for them to stop. Quite depressing.

Yet, for me at least, it's easy enough to grasp why that is, considering the establishment environment they have been immersed in for all but the first few years of their life. Which also coincides with history dating back thousands of years.

If given the choice between participating in a Milgram type experiment and playing an un-televised game of Wheel Of Fortune, what percentage of people do you think would chose Wheel Of Fortune? I think eighty percent or more would chose the Wheel.

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[NonEntity]

(11-01-2011 01:04 AM)zonsb Wrote:  If given the choice between participating in a Milgram type experiment and playing an un-televised game of Wheel Of Fortune, what percentage of people do you think would chose Wheel Of Fortune? I think eighty percent or more would chose the Wheel.

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Are you attempting to imply that the test results from the Milgram-type experiment are not representative because it is not a random selection of participants? I.e., if eighty percent had chosen "Wheel" then we have 77 percent of the remaining 20 percent, which is actually... you do the math, but way less than 77 percent.

Is that your point, or if not, what is?

- NonE (trying to understand)

P.S. As to your initial point about how people (I'm paraphrasing here) behave this way because they've been trained to behave this way, well what about the fact that those same people are creating the culture which you imply is doing the training. At some point someone will have to take responsibility for their actions, won't they? I mean, if everyone is pointing their fingers at everyone else saying "it's not my fault because he trained me to be this way," then no one is ever responsible for anything.

This is why I just cannot go along with excusing cops and soldiers (and etc.) for their actions. Sure, someone else told them to do something, but THEY are the ones who chose to follow the order and to actually DO that something...

I can tell you to go jump off a bridge. So what? (This is making me reflect on your comment, zonsb, about the Twelve Party stuff and my reaction to it... hmm.)

[zonsb]

(11-01-2011 07:40 AM)NonEntity Wrote:  

(11-01-2011 01:04 AM)zonsb Wrote:  If given the choice between participating in a Milgram type experiment and playing an un-televised game of Wheel Of Fortune, what percentage of people do you think would chose Wheel Of Fortune? I think eighty percent or more would chose the Wheel.

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Are you attempting to imply that the test results from the Milgram-type experiment are not representative because it is not a random selection of participants? I.e., if eighty percent had chosen "Wheel" then we have 77 percent of the remaining 20 percent, which is actually... you do the math, but way less than 77 percent.

Is that your point, or if not, what is?

- NonE (trying to understand)

No that wasn't my point. My point is I want to know what people think is the more likely choice. The reason I think more people would pick Wheel Of Fortune is because it is more appealing to them. BTW, nice way to sneak in an ulterior-motive straw man -- NOT!

Quote:P.S. As to your initial point about how people (I'm paraphrasing here) behave this way because they've been trained to behave this way, well what about the fact that those same people are creating the culture which you imply is doing the training. At some point someone will have to take responsibility for their actions, won't they? I mean, if everyone is pointing their fingers at everyone else saying "it's not my fault because he trained me to be this way," then no one is ever responsible for anything.

This is why I just cannot go along with excusing cops and soldiers (and etc.) for their actions. Sure, someone else told them to do something, but THEY are the ones who chose to follow the order and to actually DO that something...

I can tell you to go jump off a bridge. So what? (This is making me reflect on your comment, zonsb, about the Twelve Party stuff and my reaction to it... hmm.)

Quote:well, what about the fact that these same people...

So what about it!?!

I merely said I comprehend how it is that they do what they do. I never relieved them of their responsibility nor did I hold them unaccountable. I have often said that while we have been sold a pack of lies, it is we that bought the lies. Hold ourselves accountable for failure to hold them accountable.

If and when you want to dispel your ignorance, the TVP platform is on their website. Your reaction to the Twelve Visions Party's Prime Law (all 111 words of it) is due to your belief and ignorance. That's your problem -- not mine. Deal with it. Or don't. It makes no difference to me.

I didn't address what to do about the initiatory force, threat of force and fraud authoritarian culture that gains compliance from its victims by putting them under threat, duress and coercion. In the absence of my writing that in my previous post and absence of not holding the guilty parties accountable in my previous post, what about it?

Do you hold me accountable for omission because I didn't write about what you think I should have written about? I'm my own authority, thank you very much -- that is, I decline your offer.

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[NonEntity]

Dude, your open hostility does not foster my desire for continued conversation. That was why I didn't really have any desire to engage you in the past, and it is becoming clear to me that my attempts at meaningful dialog are just not worth my trouble. I'm not sure what it is that is being triggered for you, but I've been making a sincere effort to communicate.

My reaction at this point is a simple FUCK YOU. (Sorry Marc.)

- NonE


I'm sure you can now produce reams and reams of material proving how terrible a person I am. Fine. Go for it.

[zonsb]

(11-01-2011 04:48 PM)NonEntity Wrote:  Dude, your open hostility does not foster my desire for continued conversation.

Not hostility. I just call them as I see them without the sugar coating.

Quote:That was why I didn't really have any desire to engage you in the past, and it is becoming clear to me that my attempts at meaningful dialog are just not worth my trouble.

emphasis mine.

You came out of "hiding" on the money, power and glory thread. That's where in your initial post to it you made unsubstantiated derogatory claims about me in your response to a member other than myself. When I called your bluff to backup you claims you hid behind an a point (obfuscation) and never even tried to prove THE POINT of your claims. So I re-posted the thread to provide the evidence that I didn't ridicule you and that I did in fact in good faith try to convey/explain my position in hopes you'd understand. You ridiculed me and left the thread.

No doubt it wasn't worth the trouble you caused for yourself then or today. Here's another thread where you faked sincerity; wanting me to make an argument to your non-argument as though you had made an argument. You ridiculed me and refused to make an argument.

Quote:I'm not sure what it is that is being triggered for you, but I've been making a sincere effort to communicate.

I've been sincere in my communication with you too.

NonEntitys previous post Wrote:This is why I just cannot go along with excusing cops and soldiers (and etc.) for their actions. Sure, someone else told them to do something, but THEY are the ones who chose to follow the order and to actually DO that something...

Who are you not going along with? Is there someone else in this conversation besides the two of us? The only person here that you couldn't be going along with is me. But I never excused the cops and soldiers, despite your implication otherwise.

NonEntitys previous post Wrote:I can tell you to go jump off a bridge. So what?

You certainly proved you can dish it out. I got your sincere communication. It appears -- strike that, you've made it abundantly clear that you can't handle my sincere communication. You've called the kettle black. People that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Quote:My reaction at this point is a simple FUCK YOU. (Sorry Marc.)

I'm sure you feel better now. Don't go away mad. Just go away.

Quote:I'm sure you can now produce reams and reams of material proving how terrible a person I am. Fine. Go for it.

No need for me to do that. You've done it to yourself with your own words on this thread. Not that your a terrible person. Rather, your delusional FAKE.

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