Questions for Rabbi Truth Seeker
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Questions for Rabbi Truth Seeker
01-22-2017, 12:37 PM (This post was last modified: 01-22-2017 12:43 PM by eye2i2hear.)
Post: #16
RE: Questions for Rabbi Truth Seeker
Perhaps you can graciously cut NonItity some slack, Habenae, as after all, his choice of hours long interaction is on hiatus...? /snarkasm

Is it voluntary?

Don't judge each day by the harvest you reap but by the seeds that you plant.
--Robert Louis Stevenson

If you think in terms of a year, plant a seed; if in terms of ten years, plant trees; if in terms of a hundred years, plant ideas.
—Confucius

The farmer knows that before the reward there must be labor. You plant before you harvest. You sow in numbing repetitiveness before you reap joy.
—Ralph Ransom2i

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink --however, does not wisdom say keep the supplied water fresh for the time nigh inevitable, that he'll get thirsty enough on his own to drink, whether there to see it oneself or not?
--eye2i

Men are mortal. So are ideas. An idea needs propagation as much as a plant needs watering. Otherwise both will wither and die.
—B. R. Ambedkar
[one needs keep this forefront as surely as the con artists do, aye? --eye2i]

--the whores he road inn own2i (the artist formally known as NonTom Petty Little Man Est2)

Is it voluntary? (because if it isn't, what inherently is it?)
And can it be voluntary, if there's indoctrination, intimidation, coercion, threats & initiation of violence?
[not to be confused with asking: can it be said to be "voluntary" even when such is present.?]
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01-22-2017, 03:57 PM
Post: #17
RE: Questions for Rabbi Truth Seeker
(01-22-2017 12:37 PM)eye2i2hear Wrote:  Perhaps you can graciously cut NonItity some slack, Habenae, as after all, his choice of hours long interaction is on hiatus...? /snarkasm

Interesting link.
Quote:You are not authorized to view this page
You do not have permission to view this directory or page using the credentials that you supplied.

Please try the following:

Contact the Web site administrator if you believe you should be able to view this directory or page.
Click the Refresh button to try again with different credentials.

HTTP Error 401.1 - Unauthorized: Access is denied due to invalid credentials.
Internet Information Services (IIS)

Technical Information (for support personnel)

Go to Microsoft Product Support Services and perform a title search for the words HTTP and 401.
Open IIS Help, which is accessible in IIS Manager (inetmgr), and search for topics titled Authentication, Access Control, and About Custom Error Messages.

And the main directory, http://epguides.com/
Quote: epguides.com logo my shows | preferences
Intermittent Access Errors:

Several web servers normally handle our load,
but one of them apparently lost access permissions
and is intermittently giving out
"401 unauthorized access" errors
when it is randomly called into service.
The problem has been very difficult to track down,
but we hope that someone will be able to fix it on Monday.


Cataloguing the opiate of the masses on the small screen since 1995.

This site contains episode lists for over 7600 TV shows.
Each list displays only titles and airdates, but in most cases the episode
title is a link to the page for that episode at TVmaze.com or TV.com,
where there is more information such as guest stars and a plot summary.
If lists are available from multiple sources, you can switch between them.

To view a simple guide with summaries grouped for all episodes of a show,
click the “Printable Guide” box on the show’s page.

Can anybody delegate an authority they don't have?
Was anybody born with innate authority over anybody else?
Then how did authority nobody had get delegated to those who call themselves government?

Show me my personally signed contract wherein I consented to be governed.
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01-23-2017, 06:00 AM
Post: #18
RE: Questions for Rabbi Truth Seeker
(01-22-2017 03:57 PM)Habenae Est Dominatus Wrote:  
(01-22-2017 12:37 PM)eye2i2hear Wrote:  
his choice of hours long interaction is on hiatus...? /snarkasm

Interesting link.
Quote:▻ Click the Refresh button to try again with different credentials.

Quote:▻ one of them apparently lost access permissions

Yupp, i 2oo got that a coupla times, but a refresh did indeed clear it up. Thought @ 1irst, that along with Survivor, it 2oo was on hiatus.

Another dazes [Image: indian_h2.jpg]

Is it voluntary? (because if it isn't, what inherently is it?)
And can it be voluntary, if there's indoctrination, intimidation, coercion, threats & initiation of violence?
[not to be confused with asking: can it be said to be "voluntary" even when such is present.?]
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01-27-2017, 12:27 PM
Post: #19
RE: Questions for Rabbi Truth Seeker
[Image: bokmal.gif] back to OP fyc: here (particularly, 2nd paragraph)

Is it voluntary? (because if it isn't, what inherently is it?)
And can it be voluntary, if there's indoctrination, intimidation, coercion, threats & initiation of violence?
[not to be confused with asking: can it be said to be "voluntary" even when such is present.?]
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02-18-2017, 08:11 AM
Post: #20
RE: Questions for Rabbi Truth Seeker
HD Wrote:Yes. I can say it.
Can you prove it?

That is the sole intent of my inquiries regarding the deity you are convinced created the universe.

That and to understand your deity as you perceive your deity. That is to say, to understand what you believe and why.


Your making this too hard for yourself. It's really quite easy to understand, although it does take a bit of study per say. "What" "I believe" is that soon, I, like millions before me ...will die. Do you agree with this? Okay then, knowing this I/we IMO should consider, logically of course, what happens to my/our Neshoma, my Basar, My Ruach, when my ticker stops. I have given this much thought and STUDY throughout my short life. I decided long ago not to be arrogant and stiff-necked in my approach to the Word.
What I learned from those years of study would overwhelm this message-board. I cannot possibly
post everything here for you. You would grow dull of hearing/reading. I will end this short explanation of "what I believe and why" with "why" I believe what I do is because I don't wish to continue to exist after the certainty of death separated. Does this answer "what and why" for you?




HD Wrote:Your attempt to move the burden of proof from you to me is noted. I will play along for a little while.

DNA.

The answer is DNA.

But you would have to spend a small bit of time learning about DNA, DNA replication when cells divide, and DNA mutations that get past the cellular screening mechanisms. Then you would have to look at how much DNA humanimals (sic) share with other species of animals. As well as the parts that are different (as in differentiation) than the other animals.

Really, that's "prooves" or is an "answer" to an actual CHANGE OF KIND occuring? Are you dellusional? (Note, I still have not used the word "ignorant" as you falsely accused me of.) DNA changes abound. So what! Again, please proove an actual CHANGE OF KIND has occured as your g-d asserts. Your Straw Man attempt to address this obvious issue is kinda....blinded?


HD Wrote:So even the Institute for Creation Research agrees that humans and chimps share 70% of the same DNA.


Does this mean I am a “monkeys uncle”? Smile

HD Wrote:Non sequitur.

It does not follow. It does not answer as to how YOU know the deity YOU believe in created the universe. And it does not follow because you have not given any evidence linking your deity to the creation of an oak tree or a rose.

And besides, I'm not claiming to be the creator of the universe, so that attempt to move the burden of proof fails as well.

Actual it does follow if you think about it. If no one/nothing, except per chance, chance itself, has caused what is revealed throughout the universe as we know it, it become impossible. Vs Intelligent Design causing these things, simple logic and emunah dictates it's mathematically impossible for chance to cause the universe to exist as it does. I never said you are the creator of the universe why would you say that? All I asked is can you or any man actually “make” or “create” the oak tree or a rose or perhaps the seed for each to attempt to get you to ponder these simple questions, grasshopper.

HD Wrote:A Goy is not capable of having an "open mind". The proof is not absent, only hidden from those professing themselves to be wise. Wisdom is revealed yet hidden in the Hebrew texts. No-Theist's due to mostly pride, cannot see because they don't know where to look yet assert they have!


So your admitting the word "ignorant" is not in the above paragraph, correct? Nescient yes, but not ignorant. Certainly you realize "intelligence" is only the capacity to wonder? Your not professing to have all knowledge, right? Good, neither am I.

HD Wrote:4. How does intelligent design prove the deity YOU believe in created the universe?



I think I have answered question 4 above.


I have a simple request. Can you prevent the "trolls" from distorting the thread. I'm not sure how long I can continue with attempting to stay focused on the topics at hand if they keep interfering.

Land of the Free?
With the highest incarceration per capita in the world?
I REFUSE TO SHARE YOUR DELUSION.
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02-18-2017, 08:38 AM
Post: #21
RE: Questions for Rabbi Truth Seeker
Quote:...it's mathematically impossible for chance to cause the universe to exist as it does.

Infinity anyone?

- NonE the severely deluded Sister Sleazious .).

"I just don't understand how this happens." Undecided
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02-18-2017, 11:46 AM (This post was last modified: 02-19-2017 06:52 AM by Habenae Est Dominatus.)
Post: #22
RE: Questions for Rabbi Truth Seeker
(02-18-2017 08:11 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  I have a simple request. Can you prevent the "trolls" from distorting the thread. I'm not sure how long I can continue with attempting to stay focused on the topics at hand if they keep interfering.

Okay guys. Truth Seeker would like this thread limited to just him and I. Can somebody make a comment thread and you all post there instead?

Quick recap to assist the Rabbi with his focus:

Dionysus posted a quote in a self admitted troll, of which this was one of the ten points.
Someone on Uncommon Descent Wrote:3. They deny truth can be determined subjectively while necessarily implying that their arguments and evidences are true and expecting others to subjectively determine that their arguments are true.

(06-26-2016 12:20 PM)Habenae Est Dominatus Wrote:  Can you say strawman?

Truth is determined by examining evidence with an open mind.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence and an open mind accepts this.
Therefore, the absence of proof of god's existence is not proof of the absence of god.

(06-26-2016 05:18 PM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  Can you say, erroneous premise? A Girl (oops, there I go again, mistaking girl and Goy - Please pardon my errors) A Goy is not capable of having an "open mind". The proof is not absent, only hidden from those professing themselves to be wise. Wisdom is revealed yet hidden in the Hebrew texts. No-Theist's due to mostly pride, cannot see because they don't know where to look yet assert they have!

(12-24-2016 10:56 AM)Habenae Est Dominatus Wrote:  Rabbi Truth Seeker made a claim basically stating everyone else is ignorant nescient and implies (only) he knows the divine truth.

Okay... I'll play along as the ignorant character in the play and let Rabbi (teacher) Truth Seeker educate me about his deity.

(06-26-2016 07:28 PM)Habenae Est Dominatus Wrote:  Rabbi, in the past you have asserted that we ignorant atheists don't have the eyes to see (secret decoder ring) to properly interpret god's alleged words, Dear Rabbi, since you speak for your god, please answer any and all questions we may ask of god.

1. God, are you the creator of the universe?

(12-02-2016 08:35 PM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  1) No. (Who is "g-d"? Oops, sorry ...I suppose I am not the one to be asking the questions in this thread. My bad.) Question

(12-02-2016 09:48 PM)Habenae Est Dominatus Wrote:  2. Are you admitting that no deity created the universe?

(12-24-2016 08:37 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  Negative, only attempting to ascertain whom you were thinking I was thinking created the universe. Are you asking "whom" I know created the universe or "whom" you think I think created the universe? Or, perhaps "whom" you are thinking might have created the universe?

(12-24-2016 10:56 AM)Habenae Est Dominatus Wrote:  That looks like the Gish Gallop Two Step.
I'm asking you if YOUR deity created the universe. It's a simple question. Either the deity you believe in created the universe or that deity did NOT create the universe.

(12-24-2016 10:56 AM)Habenae Est Dominatus Wrote:  I am looking for what YOU believe; know; conclude regarding YOUR deity.

(12-02-2016 09:48 PM)Habenae Est Dominatus Wrote:  2. Are you admitting that no deity created the universe?
(12-24-2016 08:37 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  The answer to your more prying 2nd question is a resounding, NO!

(12-24-2016 10:56 AM)Habenae Est Dominatus Wrote:  3. How do YOU know the deity YOU believe in created the universe?

(01-22-2017 06:16 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  3= There are many ways I know. Let's try this one... That's easy, can you say "intelligent design"?

(01-22-2017 10:12 AM)Habenae Est Dominatus Wrote:  Can you prove it?

That is the sole intent of my inquiries regarding the deity you are convinced created the universe.

That and to understand your deity as you perceive your deity. That is to say, to understand what you believe and why.

(02-18-2017 08:11 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  Your making this too hard for yourself. It's really quite easy to understand, although it does take a bit of study per say.

"What" "I believe" is that soon, I, like millions before me ...will die. Do you agree with this?

Okay then, knowing this I/we IMO should consider, logically of course, what happens to my/our Neshoma, my Basar, My Ruach, when my ticker stops.

I have given this much thought and STUDY throughout my short life. I decided long ago not to be arrogant and stiff-necked in my approach to the Word.

What I learned from those years of study would overwhelm this message-board.

I cannot possibly post everything here for you. You would grow dull of hearing/reading.

I will end this short explanation of "what I believe and why" with "why" I believe what I do is because I don't wish to continue to exist after the certainty of death separated.

Does this answer "what and why" for you?
Paragraph spacing mine, not in the original.

It answers the why. Thank you.

Neshoma, Basar, Ruach are just words on my computer screen that you imply / claim exist without supporting evidence.

As to the what, there is a specific question (#4) on a specific topic still waiting in the queue.

(01-22-2017 10:12 AM)Habenae Est Dominatus Wrote:  4. How does intelligent design prove the deity YOU believe in created the universe?

(02-18-2017 08:11 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  I think I have answered question 4 above.

At this point I am going to do a specific review of your post looking for your explanation of how intelligent design proves the deity YOU believe in created the universe. This also would prove the existence of this deity you believe in.

(02-18-2017 08:11 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  If no one/nothing, except per chance, chance itself, has caused what is revealed throughout the universe as we know it, it become impossible.

Rational Wiki Wrote:The argument from incredulity is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone decides that something did not happen, because they cannot personally understand how it could happen.

Also, You've made an assertion without proof.

(02-18-2017 08:11 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  Vs Intelligent Design causing these things, simple logic and emunah dictates it's mathematically impossible for chance to cause the universe to exist as it does.

Your knowledge of statistics is even less than mine. Any probability greater than zero is not impossible.
What evidence do you rely upon to prove that the probability is zero?

Regardless, who designed the designer?

Can anybody delegate an authority they don't have?
Was anybody born with innate authority over anybody else?
Then how did authority nobody had get delegated to those who call themselves government?

Show me my personally signed contract wherein I consented to be governed.
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04-01-2017, 07:57 AM
Post: #23
RE: Questions for Rabbi Truth Seeker
Hab Wrote:Habenae Est Dominatus Wrote:  Rabbi Truth Seeker made a claim basically stating everyone else is ignorant nescient and implies (only) he knows the divine truth.



Neshoma, Basar, Ruach are just words on my computer screen that you imply / claim exist without supporting evidence.

As to the what, there is a specific question (#4) on a specific topic still waiting in the queue.
(01-22-2017 10:12 AM)Habenae Est Dominatus Wrote:  4. How does intelligent design prove the deity YOU believe in created the universe?
Rational Wiki Wrote:The argument from incredulity is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone decides that something did not happen, because they cannot personally understand how it could happen.

Also, You've made an assertion without proof.
(02-18-2017 08:11 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  Vs Intelligent Design causing these things, simple logic and emunah dictates it's mathematically impossible for chance to cause the universe to exist as it does.

Your knowledge of statistics is even less than mine. Any probability greater than zero is not impossible. What evidence do you rely upon to prove that the probability is zero?

Regardless, who designed the designer?

Hab,

Sorry I had forgotten about our ongoing discussion. Please pardon the lack of message board punctuations also. I do not have sufficient free time to tend to this trivial matter.

You made the false assertion above implying I am “the only one” knowing truth. I can tell you that is very far from the truth. I do not know the actual number but I think can safely say there are hundreds if not thousands alive today that have this certainty within them. (...put simply, fire insurance)
You also seemed to posit above that since you have no understanding what Neshoma, Basar, Ruach could possibly mean it cannot exist. Let's start from a very basic angle shall we? Ponder this... Is it only our flesh that gives us the means to think, walk, talk, etc. How can/could that be? You do understand there is a complex neurological aspect to humans? So complex even that no one (including myself) can ascertain the full functionality, intricacies or workings of this aspect of us. See here a part of the short Wiki definition:
A neurologist is a physician specializing in neurology and trained to investigate, or diagnose and treat neurological disorders.[2] Neurologists may also be involved in clinical research, clinical trials, and basic or translational research.

Notice how even at this present time they still do resereach attempting to understand the complexities of our neurological selves. If we cannot understand even this, how could we possibly assert a human has no Neshoma or Ruach. (soul/spirit)?
Hab Wrote:4. How does intelligent design prove the deity YOU believe in created the universe?
Are you of the opinion there is nothing that is intelligently designed? Can you make a seed? If not, how could you possibly speak with any understanding or certainty these things could not have been created? You have no proof. Please don't try to claim I am making the only claim here.

Hab Wrote:5. Who designed the designer?
No one! Who designed you?

Land of the Free?
With the highest incarceration per capita in the world?
I REFUSE TO SHARE YOUR DELUSION.
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04-01-2017, 09:43 AM
Post: #24
RE: Questions for Rabbi Truth Seeker
Oh goodie! Another idiot Habby can pound on with Wallzuv Text. Praise be two allthe.

- NonE the severely deluded Sister Sleazious .).

"I just don't understand how this happens." Undecided
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04-01-2017, 12:02 PM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2017 12:05 PM by Habenae Est Dominatus.)
Post: #25
RE: Questions for Rabbi Truth Seeker
(04-01-2017 07:57 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  
Hab Wrote:Habenae Est Dominatus Wrote:  Rabbi Truth Seeker made a claim basically stating everyone else is ignorant nescient and implies (only) he knows the divine truth.

Neshoma, Basar, Ruach are just words on my computer screen that you imply / claim exist without supporting evidence.

As to the what, there is a specific question (#4) on a specific topic still waiting in the queue.
(01-22-2017 10:12 AM)Habenae Est Dominatus Wrote:  4. How does intelligent design prove the deity YOU believe in created the universe?
Rational Wiki Wrote:The argument from incredulity is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone decides that something did not happen, because they cannot personally understand how it could happen.

Also, You've made an assertion without proof.
(02-18-2017 08:11 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  Vs Intelligent Design causing these things, simple logic and emunah dictates it's mathematically impossible for chance to cause the universe to exist as it does.

Your knowledge of statistics is even less than mine. Any probability greater than zero is not impossible. What evidence do you rely upon to prove that the probability is zero?

Regardless, who designed the designer?

Hab,

Sorry I had forgotten about our ongoing discussion. Please pardon the lack of message board punctuations also. I do not have sufficient free time to tend to this trivial matter.

No need to apologize. I'm good with you poking your head in from time to time. I understand real world demands of time and attention.

(04-01-2017 07:57 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  You made the false assertion above implying I am “the only one” knowing truth. I can tell you that is very far from the truth.

Really? Who's implying?

Here's your exact words:

(06-26-2016 05:18 PM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  Can you say, erroneous premise? A Girl (oops, there I go again, mistaking girl and Goy - Please pardon my errors) A Goy is not capable of having an "open mind". The proof is not absent, only hidden from those professing themselves to be wise. Wisdom is revealed yet hidden in the Hebrew texts. No-Theist's due to mostly pride, cannot see because they don't know where to look yet assert they have!

And here's my first exact reply in context:

(06-26-2016 07:28 PM)Habenae Est Dominatus Wrote:  Rabbi, in the past you have asserted that we ignorant nescient atheists don't have the eyes to see (secret decoder ring) to properly interpret god's alleged words, Dear Rabbi, since you speak for your god, please answer any and all questions we may ask of god.

(06-26-2016 05:18 PM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  Can you say, erroneous premise? A Girl (oops, there I go again, mistaking girl and Goy - Please pardon my errors) A Goy is not capable of having an "open mind". The proof is not absent, only hidden from those professing themselves to be wise. Wisdom is revealed yet hidden in the Hebrew texts. No-Theist's due to mostly pride, cannot see because they don't know where to look yet assert they have!

And here's my second exact reply in context:

(12-24-2016 10:56 AM)Habenae Est Dominatus Wrote:  Rabbi Truth Seeker made a claim basically stating everyone else is ignorant nescient and implies (only) he knows the divine truth.

(04-01-2017 07:57 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  I do not know the actual number but I think can safely say there are hundreds if not thousands alive today that have this certainty within them.

Regardless, even allowing for the US n THEM division, you have claimed that you know things that THEM do not.

(04-01-2017 07:57 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  (...put simply, fire insurance)

I am aware of Pascal's Wager.

I do not find it compelling. Pascal's Wager debunked.

I find Epilogue: The Rejection of Pascal's Wager to be compelling.

Especially in light of Russell's Teapot


(04-01-2017 07:57 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  You also seemed to posit above that since you have no understanding what Neshoma, Basar, Ruach could possibly mean it cannot exist.

I did not state it could not exist. This is exactly what I stated:

(02-18-2017 11:46 AM)Habenae Est Dominatus Wrote:  Neshoma, Basar, Ruach are just words on my computer screen that you imply / claim exist without supporting evidence.

It is your assertion; it is your burden to prove.

(04-01-2017 07:57 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  Let's start from a very basic angle shall we? Ponder this... Is it only our flesh that gives us the means to think, walk, talk, etc. How can/could that be?

Sarcastically, Don't know, don't care.
I don't care to delve into what nerves and neurons are and what they do.
Nor do I care to discuss what is THE ESSENCE OF I which in the end is only information stored and running on a physical memory substrate.

I do recognize you are setting up a What If scenario.

(04-01-2017 07:57 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  You do understand there is a complex neurological aspect to humans?

Yes.

(04-01-2017 07:57 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  So complex even that no one (including myself) can ascertain the full functionality, intricacies or workings of this aspect of us.

You are making an errant assertion. Much like prior to July 20, 1969, saying men will never walk on the moon.

Fixed it for you: So complex that I can not ascertain the full functionality, intricacies or workings of this aspect of us.

BTW, Science is making inroads. See artificial neural nets and fuzzy logic.

(04-01-2017 07:57 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  See here a part of the short Wiki definition:
A neurologist is a physician specializing in neurology and trained to investigate, or diagnose and treat neurological disorders.[2] Neurologists may also be involved in clinical research, clinical trials, and basic or translational research.

Notice how even at this present time they still do resereach attempting to understand the complexities of our neurological selves.

1873 - Golgi stain (procedure) allowed viewing of nerves. "Using this technique nerve cells with their highly branched dendrites and axon could be clearly visualised against a yellow background."

"in 1950s with the development of electron microscopy by which it was unambiguously demonstrated that nerve cells were individual cells interconnected through synapses to form a nervous system, thereby validating the neuron theory"

I'd place the beginning of functional neuroscience in the Fifty's. The automobile has been around longer than functional neuroscience.

(04-01-2017 07:57 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  Notice how even at this present time they still do resereach attempting to understand the complexities of our neurological selves.

And your point is what?

Discovery and understanding didn't happen according to your dictates of how long it should take?

(04-01-2017 07:57 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  If we I cannot understand even this,

Quote:https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/personal-incredulity
Because you found something difficult to understand, or are unaware of how it works, you made out like it's probably not true.

(04-01-2017 07:57 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  If we cannot understand even this, how could we possibly assert a human has no Neshoma or Ruach. (soul/spirit)?

And conversely, how could you possibly assert a human does have Neshoma or Ruach. (soul/spirit)?

Replacing the missing context for your next statement/ question.

(12-24-2016 10:56 AM)Habenae Est Dominatus Wrote:  3. How do YOU know the deity YOU believe in created the universe?
(01-22-2017 06:16 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  3= Let's try this one... That's easy, can you say "intelligent design"?
(01-22-2017 10:12 AM)Habenae Est Dominatus Wrote:  4. How does intelligent design prove the deity YOU believe in created the universe?
(04-01-2017 07:57 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  Are you of the opinion there is nothing that is intelligently designed?

My opinion is irrelevant to my question and your non-answer.

You made the claim, I'm challenging you to prove it.

(04-01-2017 07:57 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  Can you make a seed?

Attempt at deflection noted.

(04-01-2017 07:57 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  Can you make a seed? If not, how could you possibly speak with any understanding or certainty these things could not have been created?

Can you make a seed? If not, how could you possibly speak with any understanding or certainty these things could not have been created?

I'm not speaking with certainty these things could not have been created. You are speaking with certainty these things were created and I'm challenging your claim.

(04-01-2017 07:57 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  You have no proof.

I have no proof of what?

I have no proof that intelligent design of the universe doesn't exist?
I never made that claim. I don't have that burden of proof.

I have no proof that an intelligent designer of the universe doesn't exist?
I never made that claim. I don't have that burden of proof.

I have no proof that your belief is in error?
I never made that claim. I don't have that burden of proof.

(04-01-2017 07:57 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  Please don't try to claim I am making the only claim here.

Okay, I won't. I'm sure the other readers can see who is making what claims.

(04-01-2017 07:57 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  
Hab Wrote:5. Who designed the designer?
No one! Who designed you?

Not your deity, because I've not seen any evidence of your deity's existence, Only your unsubstantiated claims.

See ya in a couple of months.

(04-01-2017 09:43 AM)NonEntity Wrote:  Oh goodie! Another idiot Habby can pound on with Wallzuv Text. Praise be two allthe.

SCROLL BAR!

Can anybody delegate an authority they don't have?
Was anybody born with innate authority over anybody else?
Then how did authority nobody had get delegated to those who call themselves government?

Show me my personally signed contract wherein I consented to be governed.
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04-22-2017, 06:39 AM
Post: #26
RE: Questions for Rabbi Truth Seeker
Hab Wrote:Regardless, even allowing for the US n THEM division, you have claimed that you know things that THEM do not.

Can you say non-sequitur? This is a false accusation. I have NEVER said I am the only living person that has a good understanding of what the over ridding theme of scripture is and is not!

First you stated this:
Hab Wrote:I don't care to delve into what nerves and neurons are and what they do.
Nor do I care to discuss what is THE ESSENCE OF I which in the end is only information stored and running on a physical memory substrate.
Then you say this:
HB Wrote:You are making an errant assertion. Much like prior to July 20, 1969, saying men will never walk on the moon. Fixed it for you: So complex that I can not ascertain the full functionality, intricacies or workings of this aspect of us.
Another attempt to twist my words into what you THINK they said as apposed to what I ACCTUALLY said. I did NOT say that inroads into a better understanding would NEVER occur. Please, try to read what I say closer otherwise I might begin to think I am speaking to someone that has a slight handicap of sort.
Noted: Hab does not understand how his flesh is motivated by his nervous system. Nor does he wish to consider the remote possibility he has been designed as such.

Hab Wrote:I have no proof of what?

I have no proof that intelligent design of the universe doesn't exist?
I never made that claim. I don't have that burden of proof.

I have no proof that an intelligent designer of the universe doesn't exist?
I never made that claim. I don't have that burden of proof.

I have no proof that your belief is in error?
I never made that claim. I don't have that burden of proof.
Hab Wrote:Not your deity, because I've not seen any evidence of your deity's existence, Only your unsubstantiated claims.


Does this do much for your biases? It came in my inbox a week or so ago. I thought you and the other uniformed goys here might enjoy an in depth lesson. (I have around 200 more of these! Just let me know when your ready for some more material which requires some actual "critical thinking")


______________________________________________________________
The Irrefutable Proof of the Existence of a Supreme Being
adapted from an article by James E. Mays III
 
Let us imagine that you are Indiana Jones, the famous archeologist and the year is 1939. Your team has dug down to bedrock and embedded within the bedrock you see something that looks like it might be the top of some sort of man made object. You wonder, how could this be? This bedrock was formed millions of years ago.    The team manages to chip away the rock to reveal a small box with ornate markings on it. You open the box and inside there is a small golden plate. On the golden plate, inscribed in modern day English, you read:

Be it acknowledged, that in a year to be known as 1963 a President named John F. Kennedy, of a nation called the United States of America will be assassinated while riding down a street in a moveable object that will be known as an automobile.

What would this tell you?     One of three things:
1) You could be dreaming or drunk.
2) You could have found the result of an expertly concocted hoax.
3) Or lastly, this could be the legitimate evidence of someone who lived a million years ago. They had received information in a strange language, to them, regarding the future; and inscribed it on a golden plate. Then they buried the box containing this written information into what was then dirt, which later became rock and then later bedrock.
Several days pass and you realize you were not dreaming and you do not have a hangover, so you were not drunk. Scratch the first possibility.    You bring in a panel of experts who inspect the bedrock and the site, do all kinds of tests, and determine that there is no way this could this be a hoax.    So, scratch the second possibility.
It must be the real thing. Newscasters gather around you. Your news is in all the media. The tabloids have all offered you millions for your scoop.
Then some pranksters come forward. They show how they faked the whole thing. They redo the procedure and invite scientists to come in and investigate. These scientists do all the same tests, and conclude that, after all, yes this was how it was done. The world is both amazed and disappointed. It was a fake after all.
But neither you nor the world could be blamed for believing you had real proof, because you had done everything scientifically known to prove or disprove; and all scientific evidence available to man for proving or disproving proclaimed your artifact to be genuine.

What I am saying is that the best physical evidence can be faked given enough genius, resources, and motive. Any proof based on the three dimensions of length, width, and height can be questioned, and can possibly be inconclusive. So, when we are talking about physical proof involving the three dimensions we are talking about potentially inconclusive proof.
There is one more factor to this physical world however, and that is the factor of time. One might argue that the three-dimensional evidence of the box and the revelation you found involved time as well. No, it did not involve time; it only appeared that it did. The box had not been there for a million years, but it only appeared to have been. In the case of your box, there was the possibility of the factor of time being involved could have been faked. If not, there would have been no need to test the site and the box by all the scientists in the first place.

The only time involved in your archeological discovery that could count as proof time began the moment you made the discovery. Until you made this discovery, insofar as the actual test of time was concerned, the apparent million years had come and gone without witnesses. The public witnessing of your discovery only began when you found the artifact. If you found it three months ago, then the actual proof of the test of time was only three months, not millions of years.

In order for time to be involved in a proof, the world needs to have had the proof in front of them for the duration of the span of time required for the proof to become legitimate.

Proof Time
Suppose, for example, the chunk of rock in which you made your discovery had not been untouched, but had in fact been in a museum since the days of Napoleon's rape of the Egyptian artifact world. Suppose that instead of being in the ground unfound until three months ago, your box had been encased in the obelisk standing in St. Peter's Square, which the church in Rome took from Egypt with many thousands of witnesses, and is a matter of historic record. The world knows the obelisk is ancient, and with out being adulterated by tricksters (except for the church monks, of course).
Therefore, when your box was pulled out of the obelisk three months ago, the need for genuine testing to date the box was simply for the record, only to date the age of the box, but not for proof. The proof is that the box has been in public view and knowledge inside the obelisk for hundreds of years at St. Peter's Square; and thousands of years prior to St. Peter's Square, when the obelisk was first standing in ancient Egypt. Thus, a proof is unquestionable, insofar as the time of exposed existence is a matter of accurate public knowledge and record.

Furthermore, since the pranksters would not have had the technology at that early in time, the earliest date of public knowledge and record of the obelisk. Thus, it would have been impossible for the pranksters to travel back in time, to a date prior to the public exposure of the obelisk, to effect the scam; much less travel forward in time to the present in order to reveal their trick.

Einstein's theories seem to allow for forward time travel, which consists of traveling at speeds approaching the speed of light. At such a speed, time for you slows relative to the time for the rest of the universe. However, traveling through time is not possible although aspects of Einstein's theories will allow reverse time travel IF certain laws of physics can be overcome. For example, another theory is that it is possible to "slingshot" around a black hole and theoretically surpassing the speed of light to unwind history; this is on the condition that the relative speed-of-light limit can be breached. And then there is the wormhole theory, which allows you to punch a hole in space and move apparent thousands of light years in space without going through the actual space. This is not really time travel, just a way of cheating relative speed-of-light limit by not passing through the actual space in which this limit exists.

Can we, with our present technology, make such travels through time? Some people believe that we can. Maybe it has happened; maybe at some top-secret level we are harboring a time travel machine. Maybe Elvis is still alive and living with aliens. I am sorry, but while science fiction pretends the possibility exists, the evidence says otherwise. 1 In addition, there is no record, even in Scripture, of freestanding traveling through time. Time is as close to an absolute constant as anything can be.

Time Travel in Reality
Before continuing let us understand that even our ETERNAL SOVEREIGN, Who created the universe and is in total control of everything there is, did-not/can-not move forward or backward in time. This is a vital point needed to understand our SOVEREIGN and how He operates. Because He has given human beings free moral agency, He does not know what we will do, or what will happen tomorrow.

He could have preprogrammed all history and future events as a movie and just let it play, but that would not serve to develop His character in us. Only by trial and error can we learn, so He has given us free moral agency. However, He can and does intervene in the affairs on the earth any time He chooses 3 in order to bring His statements and will to pass. Now let us understand His statement:

Isa 46:9-10 4 Remember the former things of old, for I am SOVEREIGN, and there is no other. I am SOVEREIGN, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure.
So how can ETERNAL "declare the end from the beginning" if He does not travel back and forth in time? A good question, but let Him answer, "My counsel shall stand, and I WILL DO all My pleasure." Simply put, The Mighty One decides what He is going to do, then He does it; as an expert pool player might call "the eight ball in the side pocket" and then he makes it. The Mighty One has an overall plan for humankind that He is working out here below, yet He does not know the details of what will happen tomorrow, unless some particular item is detailed into His overall plan. Another example, ETERNAL did not know that David would think to build a Temple for The Mighty One to dwell until David thought of it, totally on his own with out any prompting. Then ETERNAL added that into His plan of action.

This is why, when Isaiah put the words of our CREATOR into writing, some of it was for the specific purpose 5 of giving us proof, in our day of advanced physics and knowledge that there is a Supreme Being. Isaiah's prophecies were written over two thousand, five hundred years ago. They were placed into public record at the time of the House of Israel's captivity, long before anyone even suspected that the House of Judah 6 would also go into captivity. All this time, this evidence has been in front of the public, a matter of public record, and now it is in Scripture all over the world.
Thus, for the evidence that we will discuss, to be a fraud the perpetuator would need to have traveled back in time to before Isaiah's prophetic writings became known publicly. He would have to manufacture the phony prophetic evidence in such a way that it would appear to be authentic Isaiah prophecy--and then return to our time to point out the "proof." 7
What is this "evidence"? We will cover two examples, although there are many more. These particular examples are unique because they contain dates. No, not numerical dates, but rather these dates are presented by way of signposts in history. Of course, such signposts are only provided when the prophecy is to be understood after these historical signposts have occurred. Until these signposts have occurred in history, the understanding of such a prophecy is always garbled because the signposts have not happened yet. It is like someone giving you directions which say to "turn right at the gray building" so you keep looking for a gray building, only to discover the building has not yet been built.

Isaiah Chapters 44, 45 and 46
To begin a discussion on Isaiah's first set of evidence we will start in Scofield's Notes for chapter 45:
Isaiah, whose name means "salvation of ETERNAL," was the greatest of the writing prophets. He carried on his ministry during the reigns of four kings, possibly 740 to 680 BC, a period of about sixty years during which time Israel was captured and carried away (722-721 BC). ...There are in Isaiah many important prophecies concerning Jerusalem...

The context for Isaiah 45 actually begins in Isa 44:28, which should actually be the first verse of chapter 45--remember the midnight monks, monkeyed around with the chapter and verse breaks. As Dr. Scofield notes the time frame of the Prophet Isaiah is prior to and after the capture of Israel. Thus, this prophecy was written about 200 years prior to the captivity of Judah and the Jews being taken captive to Babylon. Starting in Isa 45:28, the story flow is about the release of Judah from captivity seventy years after being captured. Notice the discourse begins with:

Isa 44:28 Who says of Cyrus, "He is My shepherd, and he shall perform all My pleasure, Saying to Jerusalem, 'You shall be built,' and to the Temple, 'your foundation shall be laid.'"

About 200 year before Cyrus was born; ETERNAL names him as the king that will release the Jews to rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple. Since the Jews were in captivity for 70 years, this prophecy was given about 270 years prior to the Jew's release. The signpost for this prophecy was not the captivity of Judah, but that a King of Persia named Cyrus would have captured the Babylonians and have control of the Jewish captivities.

How did ETERNAL know that, did He travel in a time machine? No, take note of what He stated:
Isa 46:11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, the man [Cyrus] who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.

Consider an architect who declares the way a building will look before he begins work. Did he travel in a time machine to see how it would look? No, he made the building to come out like he wanted it to. Likewise, when the Mighty One declares the end from the beginning; He does not jump into His handy time mobile and go see how it would end--He made it come out the way He said it would. With that in mind, consider the next verse:
Isa 45:12 I [ETERNAL speaking] have made the earth, and created man on it. I, My hands, stretched out the heavens, and all their host I have commanded.

Did you get that? The CREATOR tells us information that only people in our day could possibly verify as authentic. He tells us that He stretched out the heavens. He did not toss stars onto a black Velcro background. He did not hang little lanterns in the sky-dome. He created the universe from a singularity, 8 stretching it out into what it is today. We know this is how it happened; but we only know it because the evidence proving it, was only discovered in the last half of the twentieth century. He created the universe as a single unit at a single time or as a singularity.

Religion has tried through the centuries to compete with science on several points regarding nature, the creation, etc. When science came out with the "big bang" theory that the universe began as a singularity expanding out to become the universe, religion was adamantly against the theory. Then in the late 1950's CE two Bell Labs engineers 9 discovered evidence that pointed to the big bang was indeed the way the universe came into being, but crucial to our intent is that the universe is continually expanding.

The universe was literally stretched out from it singularity beginning and is constantly expanding, thus ETERNAL stretched out the heavens. Not that all matter exploded from nothing and evolved into the universe, but that the universe was created intact in a single moment and has been expanding ever since.

The statement that the Supreme Being stretched out the universe is not unique to this prophecy. It is found in several prophecies, all of them being understood only after the indication of the big bang expanding universe would have been established, in other words, only after the late 1950's CE. Before this time, the true understanding of these prophecies could not have been accurately understood, unless it was known to the ancients and then lost to the world in the Dark Ages. In any event, the modern would could not understand it until the signposts of history (in the late `50's) had been reached.

Another Signpost
Two verses later we see another signpost that established the date of the beginning of a prophesied event:
Isa 45:14 (TLB) ETERNAL says: "The Egyptians, Ethiopians, and Sabeans shall be subject to you. They shall come to you with all their merchandise, and it shall all be yours. They shall follow you as prisoners in chains and fall down on their knees before you and say, 'The only CREATOR there is, is your SOVEREIGN!'"

From the time the Jews were taken into captivity in the 6th century BCE, until they were defeated and scattered by the Romans around 70 CE, this prophecy had not yet occurred. Since 70 CE, Israel has not been a recognized existing political entity until 1948. In order for anyone to "come over unto" the land of Judah containing Jerusalem had to become a politically recognized entity. Thus, the prophecy could not happen until after 1948.
Also note that this event of these men coming over to Judah had to occur after Judah had, itself, returned; for these men of stature, the verse tells us, "...shall come to you..." or in other words, after Judah had returned to the land. If you have never left your home, you cannot come back to it because you are still there. First Judah had to return to the land; then these men would come over to Judah. This dictates that at no time prior to 1948 CE could this signpost have been established.

Now we come to verse 21, which is as clear a statement of irrefutable proof, if you will just think about it, that you will find anywhere.
Isa 45:21 21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the ETERNAL? And there is no other SOVEREIGN besides Me, A just SOVEREIGN and [the] Savior; there is none besides Me.
In addition to the Jews returning to Jerusalem, this prophecy will not happen until after the Advent of the Mashiach. Of the many prophetic statements made in this chapter, these two involve special cases. The first was the revelation to Isaiah by our SOVEREIGN, the Supreme Being, of the true nature of creation, from a state of singularity. Isaiah did not have radio telescopes, sophisticated detection equipment, computers, nor did they have the astronomical and quantum physics sciences to aid them in making this discovery about the creation of the universe. That is unless they knew of it from the ancients of old and the knowledge was lost in the dark ages. However, in any event we could not understand it in these latter days until after the 1950's.

Only our CREATOR could have known and told Isaiah how it was done over twenty-five centuries before the Bell Labs people discovered the expanding universe as beginning in a state of singularity.

The second prophetic statement I have chosen to give to you here is the prophetic statement about the resettlement of Israel and re-establishment of Israel as a politically recognized nation; and the subsequent infiltration of the Chr-stian missionary movements into Israel.

These and many more statements that are prophetic were given in Isaiah 45, and have occurred by the present day. All these signposts are present, with the exception of those, which are yet to come in the latter days. And the proof that they are given by the Supreme Being, and are not the figment of a hairy, dirty, crazy old man eating mushrooms is the test question given by our SOVEREIGN Himself: "Who declared all this from what for you is an ancient time"?   Who told it 2,500+ years ago? It was the One Abraham worshipped, the Supreme Being.
Had the book of Isaiah been hidden away in some ancient temple or crypt, and had this scroll become known only now, they would not be absolute proof that they are valid. Why not? Because the only time involved where these records would have been known publicly would be very short, long after the signposts had been already established.

The Truth is Out There


Because Isaiah's prophetic writings have been a matter of very public record for many, many hundreds of years and long before Judah was taken captive, much less set free to re-established as the modern nation of Israel. The prophecies were written long before the world had the capability to find the evidence in the universe that proves the way the universe was created; Isaiah's prophecies have the only indisputable proving factor of time to validate them. We cannot dispute that the record of Isaiah 45 has been before us since antiquity. We cannot dispute what these words have prophesied. We cannot dispute that these prophecies give us signposts, which did not exist or were impossible to find before the 1950's CE. Somebody who knew not only the way the universe was created, but also knew of Judah's (then) future dispersal and later revalidation as a political entity.

And what is more, the prophecy contains the declaration that our SOVEREIGN gave these anciently. These prophecies were thus meant for a time when Isaiah's record was an ancient record. Not just an old record, but an ancient record. A time when not only were Isaiah's record are ancient, but a time in which proof of the singularity of the universe was a reality; and a time when Israel had been reinstated as a political nation.

Such a prophecy indisputably establishes that those who knew these things had to learn them from someone who had the knowledge. Isaiah's prophecies declare that this Someone was the Supreme Being, our ETERNAL SOVEREIGN, and The Mighty One of Israel. The mathematical probabilities that all this information could have been gotten accurately by chance are incalculable because the possible prophecies that could have been given, if the prophets were merely guessing, are pragmatically infinite. To even get one of the prophecies correct would have been at incalculable odds. To get all of them correct, well...

The prophecies in Isaiah 45 prove the existence of the Supreme Being. They prove that Someone knew all this information over 2,500 years ago. Anyone who could know all this information over 2,500 years ago had to be the Supreme Being. He had to be Someone who knew how the universe was created, and possessed completely accurate plan, as outlined in the prophecies, of the events to transpire over the next 2,500+ years regarding Judah and settlements of a country around Jerusalem. You can, in theory; question any claims this Being made about His own nature and position; but you cannot question the facts that are irrefutably proven regarding the knowledge possessed.

Historically, men have concluded that these words were simply analogous poetry, because, they really had no other reason than to make a different a conclusion. They simply did not have the scientific knowledge or see the signposts before they existed. Now anyone who will look at it and allow themselves to see it, will know that these words were never mere poetry, but were seriously literal, revealing information no one except those living in our time could verify through science. The universe was stretched out from a singularity, and our CREATOR says He did it. And in this prophecy, He is telling this only to a people for whom Isaiah was ancient, and for whom 1948 was history.

Isaiah was not the only prophet to be told this creation information by the CREATOR. Jeremiah knew, and the writer of Job knew, as did the writer of some of the psalms of David. When you see "stretched out the heavens" in a prophecy, you can know that, there is something in that prophecies for people who know that, indeed, the heavens were literally stretched out.
Or can you know that? Can you come up with evidence more irrefutable than that which I have presented, which shows that this evidence does not prove the existence, nature and will of the CREATOR? Why not try it? Use your mind and try, give it your best effort. That is how you will discover that what I have presented here is unquestionably irrefutable. Among your questions, remember to ask, "Where else could Isaiah have gotten the information about the universe, or could what ETERNAL would do concerning Judah?" Perhaps you might think or hope that one-day, archeologists will uncover ancient radio telescopes, ancient digital computers, and ancient books with theories of relativity and records of tests done in ancient particle accelerators. Without these tools, the knowledge of a singularity beginning would never have come about. Or, maybe you can travel back in time and ask him.
________________________________________________________________

Land of the Free?
With the highest incarceration per capita in the world?
I REFUSE TO SHARE YOUR DELUSION.
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04-22-2017, 06:55 AM
Post: #27
RE: Questions for Rabbi Truth Seeker
If there is one, statistically there's millions or billions or trillions of them. It's hard to say with infinite existence. Big Grin

--&e

What’s the difference between the government and the mafia?
The mafia doesn’t have a twelve year indoctrination system to convince you it’s not organized crime. ~ Brett Veinotte
Government public "education"/indoctrination is child abuse.
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